Why so many problems regarding VAT invoices?

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JamesS

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Am I the only guy having this problem? We sold our 22 year old boat last year and were able to give the buyer a full ownership trail for the life of the boat including the original VAT invoice.

We are now looking for a veryspecific model, about ten years old or so and yet every enquiry falls apart because the seller cannot produce the original VAT invoice!

We've seen about 5 so far. At first everyone says they had the paperwork but on further questioning three had no VAT paperwork whatsoever although two said they might be able to obtain a copy whilst the other two said they had, for what it's worth, letters from the original broker saying VAT had been paid.

What then follows is something along the lines of (a) "There's a way round this", (b) "You can't expect that degree of detail on a boat that's ten years old" (c) "This copy is perfectly acceptable" - (which if fine for the UK but not necessarily abroad.)

Either way you are made to feel a heel for walking away from the sale.

Is it so unreasonable to expect to find the original VAT receipt on a boat barely 10 years old or am I just being difficult?
 
One advantage of buying an ex charter boat perhaps, because VAT will then become due on it's sale to an individual rather than a company and there will be a current VAT document.

Otherwise, it shouldn't be too difficult to knock up a passable document with a bit of imagination, a computer and a couple of strategic coffee stains that would pass muster amidst all the other documents in the ship's file when away from the UK.

Could the broker not simply issue a receipt that breaks the price paid down into the base price and the VAT, with a covering letter that says that the VAT is certified as having been paid by the seller?

This is such a common problem there must be workarounds and surely any good broker will know them?
 
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Otherwise, it shouldn't be too difficult to knock up a passable document with a bit of imagination, a computer and a couple of strategic coffee stains that would pass muster amidst all the other documents in the ship's file when away from the UK.

[/ QUOTE ] Errr..... except that this is known in the courts as forgery.
 
You are totally right to walk, or insist on an immediate price reduction of 17½%. Given the fuss that has been made about the importance of VAT receipts on yachts, anyone who can't produce the original might well be dodgy in other respects. And if you don't get one, then you're in just as bad a position when you come to sell, so expect similar treatment.

If the manufacturer is still in business, they can often be persuaded to supply a copy of the original invoice. But that's the seller's problem, not yours.

Where it gets tricky is for pre-1985 yachts, before the current regulations. Without a VAT receipt they were supposed to have applied for a Customs document known appropriately as a SAD, but many did not.
 
Do what we did.
Make an offer.
Ask for proof of VAT paid.
If not reduce your offer by 17.5%.
Pay for your boat and then pay the VAT direct to the "VATMAN".
Answer = you sleep at night with a VAT receipt under your pillow and when asked you can wave it about to any authority.

You can always ask the RYA for advice. I found them and the VAT office very helpful

dansar
 
Are you saying that 99% of us who own pre 1985 boats are dodgy?

Your assumption is that we have all owned from new

Could foresee many years in advance that we would require a VAT trail

Ensured the previous owner provided such and created a massive delay to sail for a feeling we had that VAT might one day be a problem.

I bet you would not talk about an owner like this to his face, I don't like being called dodgy and neither will 3/4 of the boat owners on here.

EDIT

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Where it gets tricky is for pre-1985 yachts, before the current regulations. Without a VAT receipt they were supposed to have applied for a Customs document known appropriately as a SAD, but many did not.

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I tell you what, man with all the answers, I defy you to find me a contact in the C&E who knows anything about this, can give me assistance, does not say oh, it will never be a problem on your boat. I will give you a finders fee for this contact, off you trot...
 
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Quote:
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Otherwise, it shouldn't be too difficult to knock up a passable document with a bit of imagination, a computer and a couple of strategic coffee stains that would pass muster amidst all the other documents in the ship's file when away from the UK.


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Errr..... except that this is known in the courts as forgery.

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Oops, yes so it is. I should have posted it on R2R Forum!
 
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I tell you what, man with all the answers, I defy you to find me a contact in the C&E who knows anything about this, can give me assistance, does not say oh, it will never be a problem on your boat. I will give you a finders fee for this contact, off you trot...

[/ QUOTE ]Exactly so, that's why pre-1985 yachts have a problem. Dover C&E issued SADs for a year or so for boat owners, then complained it was too much like hard work, and were unhelpful after. Believe me though, they know about this well enough.

But if you can prove the boat is pre-1985, generally there doesn't seem to be a big problem. I've been asked for VAT evidence in both France and Portugal, but they backed off when I stated that it was built in 1983.

BTW I'm saying a few (just a few) boat sellers are dodgy. And that's a little more likely when the paperwork doesn't stack up. I can honestly say I have never asked someone if they are dodgy before buying their boat!
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... I don't like being called dodgy and neither will 3/4 of the boat owners on here.

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What? - you mean 25% (sorry 24%) of them are dodgy?
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You don't really need a VAT receipt.
In the absence of a receipt, a letter from HM Customs (Bristol) stating that "VAT is deemed to have been paid" should be sufficient. They will issue this if they are satisfied with the Yachts history of registration etc.The seller should make every effort to obtain this.
Whether this will satisfy a grumpy Portugese Customs man with a gun on his hip has yet to be tested. It will however clarify the VAT status in the UK.
 
Please, please, give me a contact in HMCE Bristol who will issue such a letter these days. They regularly used to do this at HMCE Dover Yacht Unit (now disbanded) but (as someone else said) it got too much like hard work.
 
I am sticking out my neck here, but I would not be too worried about this issue if I had a pre-1985 yacht. To be blunt: they probably do not have a very large market value and thus would not attract much of a VAT payment. Therefore, I would be very surprised if even the most grumpy Spanish tax collector would spend any effort on trying to battle this out with you. It would probably not be worth it for them.

It is much more important to have your correct VAT documents if you have a newish and/or expensive looking yacht. That is what customs will focus on as the possible tax bill collection could be large. They are just doing their job of trying to maximise collections. This issue has been around for some 20 years now so there should be no excuse for any seller to say "oh, I didn't know" or "nobody saves these documents". Rubbish! Any serious broker would know that this is an issue and would insist on documentation. If they don't have it; you should assume a doubtful situation and walk away.
 
Unfortunately, the word in the sentence that stands out, it is the one that causes the greatest worry >

probably
 
If you haven't got a VAT certificate take it to Croatia just before it joins the Eu, make sure you have proof of berthing and Bob's your Uncle, nothing to pay.
 
DogWatch: I take your point. I cannot sound too sure that this will not be a problem. In this day and age, someone might sue me. But put it this way: I would be very, very, very surprised if you have a VAT issue with a pre-1985 yacht. (Assuming that the yacht doesn't look like it is worth a million euros.)
 
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If you haven't got a VAT certificate take it to Croatia just before it joins the Eu, make sure you have proof of berthing and Bob's your Uncle, nothing to pay.

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That non-stop passage should be a challenging voyage.
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That non-stop passage should be a challenging voyage.

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Plenty of other non-EU countries on the way, though. Libya, anyone?

Seriously, though, this has put me off going abroad, not having been across the channel for over ten years. You used to only need passport and ship's registration, and as Evadne was built before VAT was invented, not to mention before Britain was allowed into the EEC, she never has had and never will have a VAT certificate. Does M. le Plod in Cherbourg really go around demanding to see the VAT receipt of every visiting yacht?
 
Boarded twice - once in Rouen and once near Sete.Went through all my papers but as soon as they saw she was built in 1985 they didn't bother with VAT status.
 
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Seriously, though, this has put me off going abroad, not having been across the channel for over ten years. You used to only need passport and ship's registration, and as Evadne was built before VAT was invented, not to mention before Britain was allowed into the EEC, she never has had and never will have a VAT certificate. Does M. le Plod in Cherbourg really go around demanding to see the VAT receipt of every visiting yacht?

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You would have no problem at all IMO, simply because the age of the boat is very proveable by the registration documents. Our last boat was built in 1978 also pre needing VAT proof but I did go to the trouble of getting the Customs certificate thing, which nobody ever asked to see. We were checked many times by French Customs when we had that boat and were never asked for anything other than registration papers and passports. Our current boat dates from 1988 so is effected but again we have been checked several times in French waters but never asked for more than registration papers or passports. We do have VAT proof and we do carry it with us when outside of the UK but separate from the other documents so it isn't that they could have noticed it and not bothered to ask.

Don't let it put you off!
 
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