Why so few 24-30 ft yachts built now?

[NigelCraig]

With Sadler, Contessa, Moody (?) and Westerley all disappearing the only 24-30 footers now seem to be British Hunter and Cornish Crabbers. I think Beneteau do a 26 footer in the First range but all the other volume buiders start at 30/31.

Is it that they can't make a profit on smaller boats or is it people just want bigger boats?

Seems there will come a time that the supply of older boats that are capable of being restored/refitted to near new condition will dwindle or dry up.

 

[snowleopard]

Nobody is now prepared to rough it. Everyone wants to start out with a 35 footer and some even sniff at anything below 55 ft. By the time you have added all the comforts and gizmos today's sailors demand, a 26 footer would be almost as pricey as a 35.

 

[maby]

Boat sizes have been drifting up ever since pleasure sailing was invented. I've recently finished reading The Magic of the Swatchways and it is fascinating to see how perceptions have changed. Maurice Griffiths upgraded to boats in the mid thirty foot range and thought he had a floating palace...

Good book - I strongly recommend it if you haven't read it yet.

 

[Flying Penguin]

Seems there will come a time that the supply of older boats that are capable of being restored/refitted to near new condition will dwindle or dry up.

Fairly simple, until that time, unless I'm looking for "new boat smell" or a one design class, what do I get from a £70k+ Beneteau First 27.7 that I wouldn't get from a £25k nice Sadler 29 that would justify the extra £45k? Add to that the fact that if I could afford £70k, I could buy a nice second hand 36 footer.

GRP boats just don't die fast enough to sustain a market for new small boats at prices that sell.

 

[Blueboatman]

Well there are Still successful small boats but they tend to be higher value(price) niche types. Cornish crabbers and suchlike.

I believe the old adage ''the smaller the boat the bigger the fun" is still largely true but you need a certain 'flexibility' and good humour to accept the limitations

 

[jonjo]

Libby Purves wrote a piece in her column 5 or so years ago which postulated that at the end of the day everyone wants a 35ft yacht but it can take a sailing lifetime to realize that.

Think about the minimum requirements for a comfortable month afloat for 2 people:

• Heads with a decent shower compartment.
• 200 litres of water.
• Fridge.
• Galley with some free prep space in addition to the sink, cooker and fridge top.
  
• Inboard engine.
• 50 hour fuel range.
• Hotair heater.
• 200 amp hours of battery capacity.
  
• 6ft long cockpit seats.
• 6ft long saloon seats.
  
• Standing headroom right through to main sleeping cabin.
• Loads of cloths storage.
• Loads of food storage.
  
• Space on deck to store dinghy.
• Space on deck for life raft.
  
• Foredeck well for an electric anchor windlass.

It is difficult to achieve the above at under 33ft LOD.

 

[maby]

Libby Purves wrote a piece in her column 5 of so years ago which postulated that at the end of the day everyone wants a 35ft yacht but it can take a sailing lifetime to realize that.

Think about he minimum requirements for a comfortable month afloat for 2 people:

• Heads with a decent shower compartment.
• 200 litres of water.
• Fridge.
• Galley with some free prep space in addition to the sink, cooker and fridge top.
  
• Inboard engine.
• 50 hour fuel range.
• Hotair heater.
• 200 amp hours of battery capacity.
  
• 6ft long cockpit seats.
• 6ft long saloon seats.
  
• Standing headroom right through to main sleeping cabin.
• Loads of cloths storage.
• Loads of food storage.
  
• Space on deck to storage dinghy.
• Space on deck for life raft.
  
• Foredeck well for an electric anchor windlass.

It is difficult to achieve the above at under 33ft LOD.

Those pretty much match our selection criteria that we applied when we chose our recent boat.

 

[armchairsailor]

But who lives on their boat for a month at a time? Who can afford to? Only the retirees or liveabards. People should be realistic about the sort of sailing they're going to be doing: everyone wants these creature comforts, but who really uses them enough to justify them?

 

[lustyd]

But who lives on their boat for a month at a time? Who can afford to? Only the retirees or liveabards. People should be realistic about the sort of sailing they're going to be doing: everyone wants these creature comforts, but who really uses them enough to justify them?

Justification becomes easier with wealth. This comes up on the forum all the time with various items, the most recent I can think of being the wet weather gear thread.

Everyone ends up happy once they make peace with the boat they can afford but very few people can justify the high prices of a new boat if it's a small one. A couple in my marina payed for a new Hawk 20 which ended up close to £30k. This is a boat that is smaller even than mine - my reaction was that they could have had a 30 footer for that money, or at least something with a stove! The reason they wanted that boat was speed though, it's a racing class and very fun to sail.

I'd bet if you created a racing design of 27 feet that sailed well and started events etc you could sell enough to justify costs but with all the other racing already out there it would seem pointless.

 

[wotayottie]

But who lives on their boat for a month at a time? Who can afford to? Only the retirees or liveabards. People should be realistic about the sort of sailing they're going to be doing: everyone wants these creature comforts, but who really uses them enough to justify them?

Who has the money to buy and time to enjoy a decent cruising boat but those that are retired?

But I agree about realism. There are lots on here who go for the southern ocean level of seaworthyness but never go more than 10 miles from the coast. They drivel on about long keels and cutter rigs and heavy lay ups, none of which are relevant to what 99% of us do.

 

[chrisedwards]

But who lives on their boat for a month at a time? Who can afford to? Only the retirees or liveabards. People should be realistic about the sort of sailing they're going to be doing: everyone wants these creature comforts, but who really uses them enough to justify them?

"everyone wants creature comforts" -

they don't.

This bland assumption is so dangerous. Why do people dinghy cruise, mountain climb, hike, .............etc. They are putting creature comforts way down the list - much more important things can replace them. People enjoy the simpler alternatives - Maurice Griffiths and the jouy of dropoping a piece of driftwood on the pot beeied fire

 

[ianfr]

Last year we moved up from an Elizabethan 23 (great boat) which was just too small and without any kind of standing headroom. We bought a Sabre 27 fin keeler, which has standing headroom nearly everywhere.

No shower, and a tiny heads, but it is plenty big enough for the two of us and usually the dog.

The running costs have increased and all spares, ropes etc are more expensive to replace in proportion to the bigger boat.

Going to 30 - 35 ft would mean that we would be scrimping to afford anything other than the basics.

We enjoy sailing our boat, and a bigger boat would not necessarily give any more pleasure. Yes it might be a bit faster, but that is not what sailing is about. Or should I say that is not what Cruising is about.

Ian & Jo

 

[Chrusty 1]

Justification becomes easier with wealth. This comes up on the forum all the time with various items, the most recent I can think of being the wet weather gear thread.

Everyone ends up happy once they make peace with the boat they can afford but very few people can justify the high prices of a new boat if it's a small one. A couple in my marina payed for a new Hawk 20 which ended up close to £30k. This is a boat that is smaller even than mine - my reaction was that they could have had a 30 footer for that money, or at least something with a stove! The reason they wanted that boat was speed though, it's a racing class and very fun to sail.

I'd bet if you created a racing design of 27 feet that sailed well and started events etc you could sell enough to justify costs but with all the other racing already out there it would seem pointless.

I believe the Parker 235 is still in production, I mention it because it's a thoroughly modern yacht, and not the usual faux gaffer that usually comes to the small boat market. It aint cheap though. Personally, I think it's ludicrous that people with no experience are thinking of a 35-40 footer as a starter boat, yes they can go off and get the RYA sailing courses and so on, but they still wont have the experience that is the really valuable qualification for sailing. That comes with time on the water, and a smaller boat is much easier to manage and a lot less intimidating for a newbie than a thumping great 40 footer!

I suspect that the reason a lot of these shiny new 40 footers sit in marinas month in and month out, and are mostly used as weekend cottages, is that unless it's a lovely sunny day, force 1-2, the newbies that bought them are not happy to take the things to sea. I don't blame them either, when I started sailing, I wouldn't have wanted to take a 40 footer to sea in a 4-5-6, never mind a full blown gale.

If you look back at all the old salts we love and admire, I think you will find that nearly all of them, started out small and worked their way up to a larger vessel, so what's changed? Is it the "I want it now" culture, is it wives who exerting the wrong kind of pressure on tyro skippers, by demanding all the comforts of home before they will set foot aboard??

I do know that a lot of people are missing out on a lot of good sailing, by buying boats that they are not comfortable handling, or haven't the experience to handle when it pipes up a bit. There is an old saying, "the smaller your boat, the more often you will use her", I think there is a great deal of truth in that.

 

[Oatcake]

I can't remember who said it, but it goes something like, buy the smallest boat you can be happy with, not the largest boat you can afford.

So for me and the wife sailing together, for general UK and Ireland based cruising, that is a 30 foot boat, for someone else with kids it might be 40 feet, for a single hander if might be 24 feet. It's all relative.

Also smaller people tend to be happier on smaller boats, whereas for taller people it can be quite painful to contort into the gaps and especially painful for the head.

 

[Seven Spades]

Apart from comfort there is passage making. A small boat will take a lot longer to cover greater distances consequently not many people want two take 16+ hours to cross the channel for example, so a ledger boat means more freedom to travel.

I single hand a 40' boat and whilst I can afford to buy a bigger boat I am not sure that I would want to. If I was not married I would probably "downgrade" to a Sunbeam 34, which incidentally meets all the above requirements.

 

[Chrusty 1]

Apart from comfort there is passage making. A small boat will take a lot longer to cover greater distances consequently not many people want two take 16+ hours to cross the channel for example, so a ledger boat means more freedom to travel.

I single hand a 40' boat and whilst I can afford to buy a bigger boat I am not sure that I would want to. If I was not married I would probably "downgrade" to a Sunbeam 34, which incidentally meets all the above requirements.

I disagree, a larger boat may well have a longer water line length, but the difference between say a 35 footer and a 25 footer may not be all that much, depending on over hangs and things. So the said 35 footer may not cover the ground much faster than the 25 footer in any meaningful way.

 

[prv]

If you look back at all the old salts we love and admire, I think you will find that nearly all of them, started out small and worked their way up to a larger vessel, so what's changed? Is it the "I want it now" culture, is it wives who exerting the wrong kind of pressure on tyro skippers, by demanding all the comforts of home before they will set foot aboard??

You can't really run a Comp Crew / Day Skipper course on much less than a 34, not if you want to ship enough students to fund what you're paying the instructor. A 36 foot Bavaria is probably quite typical.

With the cost and requirements of coding, we're told it's not really feasible to offer small boats for charter any more.

So for some people who come into sailing via a couple of courses and then some chartering, 36ish feet is the norm, what a proper boat looks like, and anything below 30 is some weird midget not worth considering.

Pete

 

[Flying Penguin]

But who lives on their boat for a month at a time? Who can afford to? Only the retirees or liveabards. People should be realistic about the sort of sailing they're going to be doing: everyone wants these creature comforts, but who really uses them enough to justify them?

Well of that list, I can think of two items I would happily sacrifice even if cost were no issue, the showers and the electric windlass. The rest I could and would use, even on a weekend potter. If the choice is between new and small and old and big, it has to meet most of that list to be a suitable choice.

Whilst I agree that you should never have a boat bigger than you can afford to keep properly and handle with your regular crew size and skill, how many people really view this as some nautical hair shirt version of mountain climbing? I'm not sure i've met more than one or two. And how much can they as a group spend on new boats? I suspect that this group are largely happy at the moment with the second hand choices, therefore no mainstream manufacturer will put much effort into that market, hence the prevalence of the average Ben/Jen/Bav tub.

If anything is driving this change, I think the most likely explanation is that the prevalence of marinas and facilities have opened sailing up to people that in the past would have never looked at it because of the grizzled old sea dog image, but now consider it something they can do with family and friends. One of the reasons I (and i suspect many others) like sailing is that I can involve the wife and family in a way that doesn't subject them to some form of self flagellation. Don't get me wrong, I love sailing and am doing whatever I can to be a good sailor, but it's not always about the isolation and deliberately 'roughing it' when I don't have to.

If money dictates that a 25 footer is the only option then that's what you will get (though it will probably be second hand), but if a bigger boat is an option (subject to money and experience caveats above), the 25 footer will not meet our needs nearly as well. At best it could be a bridge boat for a couple of years till we feel confident enough as a family, but even then we're more likely to pick up e.g. A Sadler 25 for sub 10k then flog it A couple of years later than to pay 70+ for a new build. Net result, smaller market for new small boats.

 

[maby]

But who lives on their boat for a month at a time? Who can afford to? Only the retirees or liveabards. People should be realistic about the sort of sailing they're going to be doing: everyone wants these creature comforts, but who really uses them enough to justify them?

I know quite a few people that live on their boat for a month (and more) at a time. We spend considerable amounts of time on our boat at times - and we are not retired, or particularly rich. We have to go to work every day - just commute from the boat instead of the house. That is "liveaboard" but possibly not in the sense that you mean - we cannot simply afford to stop work and bum around the Med - the boat is just an alternative to a flat.

 

[maby]

"everyone wants creature comforts" -

they don't.

This bland assumption is so dangerous. Why do people dinghy cruise, mountain climb, hike, .............etc. They are putting creature comforts way down the list - much more important things can replace them. People enjoy the simpler alternatives - Maurice Griffiths and the jouy of dropoping a piece of driftwood on the pot beeied fire

Of course "everyone" is an exageration, but the hardy souls that climb mountains and hike long distances are in the minority. Given the choice, the majority of boat owners will tend towards something in the mid to high thirty foot range and equipped with a fair range of mod cons. It's a good compromise between price, manageability and comfort. We upgraded from a 27 footer - which we really loved - to a 33 - and the difference is fantastic. To get the same step-change in comfort and accomodation moving further up the scale would require a very siginficant extra investment.