why do (some) people hate bilge/twin keels

[dylanwinter]

a comment on the Kudu thread got me thinking about Bilge keels/twin keel prejudice

they are now part of Britain's sailing heritage

yet a lot of poeple I have met would never touch a boat with them

Katie L is parked at Brough above the Humber Bridge

the estauary drains to about 2m in the channel - if you can find it

yet most of the yachts there have deep single keels

so they sail ay high tide and then go back to Brough to hide in the deep mud

I have had the triple keeled slug, I have had a a couple of drop keelers and a fin keeler and now I have two sub keels and a centre plate

I don't think I would ever go back to a single keel

I love the shallow bits too much

Dylan

 

[Tranona]

Same reason as they (often the same people) despise AWBs. They are prejudiced and unable to see that individuals want different things out of their boats which horror of horrors might result in them buying something these ostriches despise.

Having said that, one of the first things I did when I refitted my Eventide many moons ago was remove the bilge keels. Reason simple - I have a deep water mooring and by deepening the central keel I improved the sailing ability, but lost the facility to dry out on a mooring.

The keels now perform the useful function of blocking a gap in my back fence to stop my new labrador puppy from escaping.

 

[chinita]

Although I adore my long keel wooden Vertue I often crave for the flexibility offered by my bilge keel Konsort when I took her from Whitby to Beaumaris back in 1998.

If I ever have another boat it will certainly be one able to take the ground.

 

[Sans Bateau]

I'd say there is a big difference between bilge keels and twin keels. Bilge keels Kingfisher 26 (?) sails sideways a lot, or twin keels Sadler 26/29, well DJE can tell you better than I can, (psst, sail pretty well)

 

[onesea]

Horses for courses, I grew up deep keel, started here on the Solent bilge keel and have now switched to 1.9m of fin.

Change of life style we now appreciate performance and sail through lunch. The size of boat we wanted and depth of keels needed with the local tidal range means we appreciate the sailing performance more than we would large bilge keels that would take most of the tide to dry out...

If you cannot walk ashore you are going to need a dinghy so you might as well anchor. If there is not a marina handy...

Allot comes down to area and how you sail.

For the Humber (having never sailed there) can I suggest that if shallow draft does not help you get on and off the mooring. The tidal range is such that the wait for the keel to lift from the mud is such its not significant.That there are sufficient bolt holes and river with suitable depth at LW to enjoy a LW sail people are appreciating the performance of deep keels.

Oh and the ability to sail away form Hull and Great Grimsby

 

[Pleiades]

Talking bilge

A bilge keeler like the above little Snappy can provide fantastic value for money and can be kept afloat in shallow harbours where a long or fin keel would fall over. As far as sailing performance goes, well that Snappy will sail all day long on a small Raymarine autohelm which is a good indication of a light helm and good tracking. She tacks and heaves too easily. And in comparison with similar boats of any keel configuration she is certainly fast enough to be fun even if not ultimately as slippery. An advantage over a lifting keel is that the cabin can be open and surprisingly spacious because you don't have the lifting keel aparatus to take up precious cabin space and none of the maintenance problems associated with lifting keels as they age. Having owned lifting keel, long fin, bilge and long keel I found that when I moved to a long fin I did appreciate the better sailing performance. As I kept them on a deep water mooring I rarely dried my bilge keeler out or needed to lift the keel so had no need for the advantages of bilge. And now with a long keel I prefer that to all but certainly little bilge keelers can be just the craft for perfect coasting.

Robin
Pleiades of Birdham
MXWQ5

 

[photodog]

A bilge keeler like the above little Snappy can provide fantastic value for money and can be kept afloat in shallow harbours where a long or fin keel would fall over. As far as sailing performance goes, well that Snappy will sail all day long on a small Raymarine autohelm which is a good indication of a light helm and good tracking. She tacks and heaves too easily. And in comparison with similar boats of any keel configuration she is certainly fast enough to be fun even if not ultimately as slippery. An advantage over a lifting keel is that the cabin can be open and surprisingly spacious because you don't have the lifting keel aparatus to take up precious cabin space and none of the maintenance problems associated with lifting keels as they age. Having owned lifting keel, long fin, bilge and long keel I found that when I moved to a long fin I did appreciate the better sailing performance. As I kept them on a deep water mooring I rarely dried my bilge keeler out or needed to lift the keel so had no need for the advantages of bilge. And now with a long keel I prefer that to all but certainly little bilge keelers can be just the craft for perfect coasting.

Robin
Pleiades of Birdham
MXWQ5

Well... It can't sail that well if he needs TWO motors!

 

[Searush]

Twin keels are perfick for big tides, sandbanks & drying harbours around N Wales & Anglesey. There are only a handful of all tide harbours (Holyhead, Amlwch & the Straits) but there are dozens of delightful drying harbours & anchorages all around the area, so a fin keel (without legs) would be so restrictive as to be not worth having, except for the long passage makers.

I find short coastal hops are far more fun than 12 hour open sea passages, but fortunately we are all different, otherwise the price of twin keelers would be astronomical!

 

[Pleiades]

Talking bilge

Two engines cause its a proper little sea going ship -a main OB (6hp) and an auxiliary (3.5hp - perfect for trolling for fishes) - reminds me of the time the skipper had occasion to offer to tow in an RNLI Rib there on a windless day when their (single) outboard packed up - much to their embarrassment. He could even have offered to lend the RNLI the spare engine but that would probably have been rubbing it in......Two engines is better than one no matter how well it sails

 

[glashen]

Katie L is parked at Brough above the Humber Bridge

the estauary drains to about 2m in the channel - if you can find it

Having sailed from Christchurch all my life the idea of having 2 meters in the channel at LW sounds like absolute luxury, we don't get 2 meters on HW so most of us have bilge keels or lowering/swinging keels. I have a triple keel Trident 24 and enjoy the flexibility the shallow draft gives and the ability to take the ground when I want. It is something I have noticed cruising that a lot of deep keel yachts are excluded from some of the idyllic spots that us bilge keelers enjoy. But I must admit the regime of the tides dictating when you can set off as never been that big an issue for me. I think I actually enjoy the discipline it enforces.

 

[Wansworth]

Back in the early 60 yachting in cabined boats took off and there was not enough room in deep waterfor the indusrty to grow so they built bilge keelers to sit on the mud.Probaqbly the majority where lousy sailing boats with little science applied to their design.They got off to a bad start.My tutor thought bilge keels were an abomination and looking at a fine keel boat compared to a stubby B/K it was hard to argue.With the coming of the Westerly 26 things started looking up .With the golden years and credit people gradually could afford keel boats and their moorings. and they wanted bigger boats so out whent the bilge keelers.Maybe now there will be a return to them....

 

[dylanwinter]

perfect sense

Back in the early 60 yachting in cabined boats took off and there was not enough room in deep waterfor the indusrty to grow so they built bilge keelers to sit on the mud.Probaqbly the majority where lousy sailing boats with little science applied to their design.They got off to a bad start.My tutor thought bilge keels were an abomination and looking at a fine keel boat compared to a stubby B/K it was hard to argue.With the coming of the Westerly 26 things started looking up .With the golden years and credit people gradually could afford keel boats and their moorings. and they wanted bigger boats so out whent the bilge keelers.Maybe now there will be a return to them....

sounds like a great summary

Dylan

 

[Tomahawk]

Few years ago I saw an article about a French boat... (it would be French as they like to inovate) designed for a three peaks type race.. where one has to run ashore and up a hill for some odd reason... The design issue was that there were no marinas. only drying beaches and inlets

It was only 24 feet long but had a mini transat type hull form but with swinging twin keels some 2m long.. She could sit on the ground with the keels up then deploy the leward one for beating... apparently it was very fast...

 

[Marakei]

Here's Roger Taylor on choosing bilge keeled Corribee Ming Ming:

'For my money, the shallow draft was good for both coastal cruising and blue water work - a light boat with a deep keel can easily by tripped and capsized if thrown sideways by a breaking sea; shallow draft reduces this possibility'.

Voyages of a simple sailor, p149.

 

[bemugg124]

Bilge keels and twin keels is quite difference
A bilge keeler can be kept afloat in shallow harbours
As for the twin keels are perfick for big tides

 

[dylanwinter]

good point

Here's Roger Taylor on choosing bilge keeled Corribee Ming Ming:

'For my money, the shallow draft was good for both coastal cruising and blue water work - a light boat with a deep keel can easily by tripped and capsized if thrown sideways by a breaking sea; shallow draft reduces this possibility'.

Voyages of a simple sailor, p149.

so the ideal sea boat

twin keels

and as old Middleton says

21 feet long

“Seamen tell me that there are great curling seas which will swallow up anything;and I can fully understand that no vessel could live in the heavy breqakers to be met with on the Cornish coast; but I have run before curling seas, of certainly from 18 to 20 feet high, off Cromer, and yet nothing of any importance has ever come on board. I have looked behind and seen waves which threatened to curl right over me; but they always run under the ster, the white water rushing along the descks on each side sifficient to drown an open boat, but of no consequence to a decked on.

Again the length of twenty-one feet is of the greatest advantage when running , for the boat only contends with one sea at a time; whereas greater length is sometimes hung on two, and frequently overruns the seas. The wave usually carries The Kate along with it – for this rreason, that the greatest beam is about three feet aft of the mainmast. The sea therefore holds onto that point and sweeps the boat along on its edge (if it is curler) until broken, when the staunch little craft rushes through the white water as smoothly as possible.”



EE Middleton – the Cruise of the Kate 1868

http://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/blogs/the-ideal-length-for-a-yacht-is-21-feet/

 

[DJE]

I'd say there is a big difference between bilge keels and twin keels. Bilge keels Kingfisher 26 (?) sails sideways a lot, or twin keels Sadler 26/29, well DJE can tell you better than I can, (psst, sail pretty well)

It's all been said before many times. Some people listen, others don't want to hear it. There is a huge difference between the early bilge keelers with two stubby vertical keels and internal ballast (which were designed to keep the moulds simple) and modern designs with high aspect inclined keels like the Sadler 290 or RM880. But for some people a bilge keeler is a bilger keeler is a bilge keeler and that's all there is to it.

The Sadlers are somewhere inbetween the two extremes but fairly sophisticated as the keels are fairly deep, inclined, and of assymetric section so that they develop lift to windward when heeled. Ours has been know to give bigger fin keeled boats a run for their money to windward (ask Galadriel )!

Ours lives on a deep water mooring and we rarely dry her out completely except for a scrub or to visit places like Brignogan Plage or Sauzon! But the greatest benefit in crowded waters is the ability to anchor in the shallows and happily take the ground for a couple of hours at low water.

 

[dt4134]

Is there not a middle ground between 'hate' and just prefering the sailing characteristics of deep fin keeled boats?

 

[dylanwinter]

Of course

Is there not a middle ground between 'hate' and just prefering the sailing characteristics of deep fin keeled boats?

and I am sure you inhabit that lovely middle ground

but I think there might be some people who hate the whole idea

not hate as in "I hate people who flog horses or dogs"

but hate as in

"I would never ever buy one as all bilge/twin keelers sail like dogs and should never go more than two miles from shore because they are dangerous and should really be banned"

sort of hate

Dylan

 

[DJE]

"I would never ever buy one as all bilge/twin keelers sail like dogs and should never go more than two miles from shore because they are dangerous and should really be banned"

sort of hate

prej·u·dice
   [prej-uh-dis] Show IPA noun, verb, prej·u·diced, prej·u·dic·ing.
noun
1. an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.
2. any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable.
3. unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, especially of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group.
4. such attitudes considered collectively: The war against prejudice is never-ending.
5. damage or injury; detriment: a law that operated to the prejudice of the majority.