Why are lifejackets not provided on some boats?

[GabrielTurner]

I've been on a few boat trips, and I've noticed that lifejackets are not provided for passengers in the event of an emergency. Instead mini liferafts* and/or life rings (flotation devices) are stored on the boat in a location e.g. on the top of the boat, where they will float freely should the boat sink.

However I can see a number of flaws with this, one being what if an emergency takes place e.g. a fire, which neccesitates the evacuation of the boat ASAP but without the floatation devices floating freely, and another being what if they float to a location that people cannot get to them, especially if they are unable to swim, or wearing clothing that makes swimming more difficult, and/or weights them down e.g. jeans.

Why is it that they do things that way rather than just providing lifejackets for passengers? Especially considering that crew are provided with lifejackets on safety grounds i.e. to keep them afloat should they accidentally fall into the water. On top of that on one occasion I saw lifejackets being stored on a boat, although they were not for passenger use. I'm sure that they were not provided because the safety instructions explained that they were not.

*Mini liferafts are not like normal liferafts, they just have rope on them which you can hold onto to keep yourself afloat, in a similar manner to liferings.

 

[oldgit]

All matter of risk assesment for pleasure trip boats on the Thames.
The distance from solid ground and getting assistance vs getting 50 life jackets on and off all passengers when boarding and disembarking . ?

Think the rules and regs are very similar be it non tidal or offshore, suspect flares might not be vital at Hampton Court.

 

[Boathook]

The crew have lifejackets as they are the ones outside safety barriers when mooring, etc. By the time passengers had got lifejackets on and fitted they will be walking ashore imho, for the upper Thames. The Thames by London and to sea is a bit different and I seem to remember on a trip that lifejackets were available, but again a badly put on one doesn't work well.

 

[Old Crusty]

Apart from first aid, there are just the two emergency situations on passenger boats on the non tidal river that are practised usually, fire and sinking.

In both cases, the plan will be to stuff the boat into the nearest bank and evacuate the passengers and crew ashore. It's unlikely that there will be time to issue lifejackets.

If the boat sank immediately mid stream, which is very unlikely, most of them would sit on the bottom allowing time to climb on the roof or upper deck and don LJs and get passengers into rescue boats - but, of course, the chances of having sufficient boats nearby is low. So stuffing it into the bank is the solution.

The MCA regs require a number of flotation devices aboard each passenger boat but its not enough for one each, hence the common skipper joke about first come, first served.

 

[GabrielTurner]

All matter of risk assesment for pleasure trip boats on the Thames.
The distance from solid ground and getting assistance vs getting 50 life jackets on and off all passengers when boarding and disembarking . ?

Think the rules and regs are very similar be it non tidal or offshore, suspect flares might not be vital at Hampton Court.

I doubt that they would need to get the lifejackets on and off all the passengers every time. Just providing them for emergency use would do if they chose to provide them.

The crew have lifejackets as they are the ones outside safety barriers when mooring, etc. By the time passengers had got lifejackets on and fitted they will be walking ashore imho, for the upper Thames. The Thames by London and to sea is a bit different and I seem to remember on a trip that lifejackets were available, but again a badly put on one doesn't work well.

See above.

 

[GabrielTurner]

Apart from first aid, there are just the two emergency situations on passenger boats on the non tidal river that are practised usually, fire and sinking.

In both cases, the plan will be to stuff the boat into the nearest bank and evacuate the passengers and crew ashore. It's unlikely that there will be time to issue lifejackets.

If the boat sank immediately mid stream, which is very unlikely, most of them would sit on the bottom allowing time to climb on the roof or upper deck and don LJs and get passengers into rescue boats - but, of course, the chances of having sufficient boats nearby is low. So stuffing it into the bank is the solution.

The MCA regs require a number of flotation devices aboard each passenger boat but its not enough for one each, hence the common skipper joke about first come, first served.

If a boat sank immediately mid stream then there wouldn't necessarily be time to stuff the boat into the nearest bank. As for getting round the issue of there not being time to issue lifejackets, why not just put them somewhere accessible to passengers e.g. underneath seats or in some sort of overhead compartment like they do on Thames Clippers. Given that there isn't that much of a chance of there being sufficient boats nearby, then why not just get passengers onto the roof or upper deck, get them lifejackets and assist them in donning them, then await for assistance there? There not being sufficient flotation devices required is ridiculous isn't it?

 

[Old Crusty]

If a boat sank immediately mid stream then there wouldn't necessarily be time to stuff the boat into the nearest bank. As for getting round the issue of there not being time to issue lifejackets, why not just put them somewhere accessible to passengers e.g. underneath seats or in some sort of overhead compartment like they do on Thames Clippers. Given that there isn't that much of a chance of there being sufficient boats nearby, then why not just get passengers onto the roof or upper deck, get them lifejackets and assist them in donning them, then await for assistance there? There not being sufficient flotation devices required is ridiculous isn't it?

I think I covered that first point. Suggest that you write to the MCA with your ideas. Meanwhile, we passenger boat skippers & crew have to follow the existing regulations. I'm sure Chris French will welcome your thoughts.

 

[GabrielTurner]

If a boat sank immediately mid stream then there wouldn't necessarily be time to stuff the boat into the nearest bank. As for getting round the issue of there not being time to issue lifejackets, why not just put them somewhere accessible to passengers e.g. underneath seats or in some sort of overhead compartment like they do on Thames Clippers. Given that there isn't that much of a chance of there being sufficient boats nearby, then why not just get passengers onto the roof or upper deck, get them lifejackets and assist them in donning them, then await for assistance there? There not being sufficient flotation devices required is ridiculous isn't it?

I think I covered that first point. Suggest that you write to the MCA with your ideas. Meanwhile, we passenger boat skippers & crew have to follow the existing regulations. I'm sure Chris French will welcome your thoughts.

Thank you will do. To be fair you did but you also said that it would be unlikely that there would be sufficient rescue vessels available. I take it that in such a situation then you would get people to the roof or upper deck, and issue lifejackets to passengers then? What would you do if there weren't sufficient lifejackets available, or you didn't have enough specialist flotation devices e.g. floating lifecots for passengers who needed them? I take it that you would issue what you had to women and children first and that men would have to fend for themselves, with other flotation devices being used to keep as many people afloat as possible?

 

[Boathook]

I thought that trip vessels had to have enough flotation devices for all passengers. This is why for ferrys they count the number of people coming on board, etc.

 

[Boathook]

I doubt that they would need to get the lifejackets on and off all the passengers every time. Just providing them for emergency use would do if they chose to provide them.

Lifejackets on ferrys are only for emergency use. If they were used by every passenger on every trip they would have to be serviced and inspected at least weekly due to wear and tear, etc. As far as I know ferrys do not have a choice over what they wish to provide. Its laid down in some regulation that will no doubt vary for size of vessel, route, etc.

 

[Old Crusty]

All the MCA information is on the .gov website.

Here's the extract from the regulations covering life saving devices for small passenger vessels (up to 12 passengers) on category A & B waters that is the non-tidal Thames:

13. LIFE-SAVING APPLIANCES (LSA)
13.1 Lifebuoys
13.1.1 For the recovery of persons from the water, vessels should carry lifebuoys.
13.1.2 In CATEGORY A AND B WATERS one suitable lifebuoy should be carried with a buoyant line of at least 18m in length. If operating at night, the lifebuoy should also be fitted with a light. Quoits or throw lines maybe used as an alternative.
13.1.3 In CATEGORY C AND D WATERS a minimum of two suitable lifebuoys should be carried, at least one with a buoyant line of at least 18m in length. If operating at night one suitable lifebuoy should have a light.
13.1.4 On vessels where all passengers and crew wear a lifejacket, no lifebuoys are needed. [NB: See Annex 5 - Beach Craft Guidelines].
13.2 Lifejackets and buoyant apparatus
13.2.1 In CATEGORY A and B WATERS, lifejackets for use in an emergency are not required. Exceptionally, where vulnerable passengers are carried, a risk assessment should be carried out to establish whether, and in what circumstances, lifejackets or buoyant apparatus should be available to assist in the event of an evacuation.
13.2.2 IN CATEGORY C and D WATERS, vessels should carry enough lifejackets for all persons on board for use in the event of an emergency.

For larger passenger steamers carrying more than 12 passengers from MGN76 (M):

12 Life-Saving Appliances Rationale:
Liferafts - Evacuation in an emergency should be direct to shore, liferaft or attending ship as far as practical, therefore passengers should not be expected to enter the water. In category A waters, ships should use the most appropriate life saving appliance or equipment to achieve this goal. In other categories of water, based on analysis undertaken regarding survival times of ships in the event of flooding it is of paramount importance to evacuate the ship as quickly as possible. Open Reversible Inflatable Liferafts (ORILs) provide a safe evacuation platform and total evacuation time will be less than scenarios when other ships attend to evacuate passengers.
Rationale: Buoyant Apparatus – The provision of buoyant apparatus or lifebuoys is to provide some LSA for the very low probability/high consequence events such as a serious collision leading to capsize with no time to launch and evacuate to liferafts. In this unlikely event, buoyant apparatus would give passengers in the water something to hold on to.

The next page of this extract lists how many of any flotation device is required.

In practice, skippers are taught to head immediately to the bank where the river is shallow and any vessel will ground/beach, allowing rapid disembarkation of all passengers and crew even though they may get wet feet. Only a catastrophic breach of the hull is likely to sink a vessel quickly but even then, the bilge pumps should give the skipper just enough time to get in the shallows. On the non-tidal Thames, the water depth in the fairway (middle third) varies from about a metre to an average 5 metres (though there are scour holes up to 25 metres deep) so any boat is never more than a few metres from the shallows.

IMO, fire is the far greater risk given the hot appliances used on board and the presence of gas. In the case of fire, again, skippers are taught to head to the bank for a rapid disembarkation. Personally, I would only tell passengers to get in the water if their lives were at extreme risk, worse than staying on board for the couple of minutes it would take me to reach the shallows.

Each time there is a serious incident afloat, the MCA investigates to determine what may be learned so that the regulations may be amended. That said, no H&S regulation or risk assessment is perfect, there is a risk to everything we do.

And finally, we don't discriminate about who gets what in an emergency, our job as skipper is to protect all passengers as best we can using our judgement of the situation, irrespective of age and gender, and get them ashore safely.

 

[GabrielTurner]

Lifejackets on ferrys are only for emergency use. If they were used by every passenger on every trip they would have to be serviced and inspected at least weekly due to wear and tear, etc. As far as I know ferrys do not have a choice over what they wish to provide. Its laid down in some regulation that will no doubt vary for size of vessel, route, etc.

That's true, hence proving that lifejackets can be provided only for emergency use on any vessel in my opinion.

 

[GabrielTurner]

All the MCA information is on the .gov website.

Here's the extract from the regulations covering life saving devices for small passenger vessels (up to 12 passengers) on category A & B waters that is the non-tidal Thames:

13. LIFE-SAVING APPLIANCES (LSA)
13.1 Lifebuoys
13.1.1 For the recovery of persons from the water, vessels should carry lifebuoys.
13.1.2 In CATEGORY A AND B WATERS one suitable lifebuoy should be carried with a buoyant line of at least 18m in length. If operating at night, the lifebuoy should also be fitted with a light. Quoits or throw lines maybe used as an alternative.
13.1.3 In CATEGORY C AND D WATERS a minimum of two suitable lifebuoys should be carried, at least one with a buoyant line of at least 18m in length. If operating at night one suitable lifebuoy should have a light.
13.1.4 On vessels where all passengers and crew wear a lifejacket, no lifebuoys are needed. [NB: See Annex 5 - Beach Craft Guidelines].
13.2 Lifejackets and buoyant apparatus
13.2.1 In CATEGORY A and B WATERS, lifejackets for use in an emergency are not required. Exceptionally, where vulnerable passengers are carried, a risk assessment should be carried out to establish whether, and in what circumstances, lifejackets or buoyant apparatus should be available to assist in the event of an evacuation.
13.2.2 IN CATEGORY C and D WATERS, vessels should carry enough lifejackets for all persons on board for use in the event of an emergency.

For larger passenger steamers carrying more than 12 passengers from MGN76 (M):

12 Life-Saving Appliances Rationale:
Liferafts - Evacuation in an emergency should be direct to shore, liferaft or attending ship as far as practical, therefore passengers should not be expected to enter the water. In category A waters, ships should use the most appropriate life saving appliance or equipment to achieve this goal. In other categories of water, based on analysis undertaken regarding survival times of ships in the event of flooding it is of paramount importance to evacuate the ship as quickly as possible. Open Reversible Inflatable Liferafts (ORILs) provide a safe evacuation platform and total evacuation time will be less than scenarios when other ships attend to evacuate passengers.
Rationale: Buoyant Apparatus – The provision of buoyant apparatus or lifebuoys is to provide some LSA for the very low probability/high consequence events such as a serious collision leading to capsize with no time to launch and evacuate to liferafts. In this unlikely event, buoyant apparatus would give passengers in the water something to hold on to.

The next page of this extract lists how many of any flotation device is required.

In practice, skippers are taught to head immediately to the bank where the river is shallow and any vessel will ground/beach, allowing rapid disembarkation of all passengers and crew even though they may get wet feet. Only a catastrophic breach of the hull is likely to sink a vessel quickly but even then, the bilge pumps should give the skipper just enough time to get in the shallows. On the non-tidal Thames, the water depth in the fairway (middle third) varies from about a metre to an average 5 metres (though there are scour holes up to 25 metres deep) so any boat is never more than a few metres from the shallows.

IMO, fire is the far greater risk given the hot appliances used on board and the presence of gas. In the case of fire, again, skippers are taught to head to the bank for a rapid disembarkation. Personally, I would only tell passengers to get in the water if their lives were at extreme risk, worse than staying on board for the couple of minutes it would take me to reach the shallows.

Each time there is a serious incident afloat, the MCA investigates to determine what may be learned so that the regulations may be amended. That said, no H&S regulation or risk assessment is perfect, there is a risk to everything we do.

And finally, we don't discriminate about who gets what in an emergency, our job as skipper is to protect all passengers as best we can using our judgement of the situation, irrespective of age and gender, and get them ashore safely.

But if a liferaft is provided on vessels carrying more than 12 passengers, and not sailing in Category A waters, then why not lifejackets? Why buoyant apparatus only?

I can understand not discriminating about who gets what, but if it wouldn't be women and children first and you had to choose who to issue lifesaving equipment to, then who would get it? If I were in that position then those who needed it most would be getting it i.e. those less able to fend for themselves. That would mean shorter people, and children would be more likely to get it than adults who are tall enough to stand up in the water, and adults who are more able to fend for themselves. But I think that you shouldn't be put into that position. Whilst you might not be forced to carry sufficient lifejackets, carrying sufficient lifejackets is the right thing to do in my opinion.

 

[Pump-Out]

I can understand not discriminating about who gets what, but if it wouldn't be women and children first and you had to choose who to issue lifesaving equipment to, then who would get it? If I were in that position then those who needed it most would be getting it i.e. those less able to fend for themselves. That would mean shorter people, and children would be more likely to get it than adults who are tall enough to stand up in the water, and adults who are more able to fend for themselves. But I think that you shouldn't be put into that position. Whilst you might not be forced to carry sufficient lifejackets, carrying sufficient lifejackets is the right thing to do in my opinion

The MCA's intent is to achieve DRY SHOD EVACUATION (DSA). As Crusty has said above on Cat A & B waters the depth of the water rarely exceeds the draught+air draft measurement of the vessel employed.

Most Class V's use most of the river to turn, indeed some need to choose the turning points as part of the passage plan, they are that large in relation to the waters being navigated, that issuing lifejackets would actually be a delay in gaining DSA. There have been many exercises, both real and paper, that show the crews are best focused on DSA, not issuing lifejackets to passengers unfamiliar with donning them.

Float free OIRL can be launched manually, without the vessel having to sink to that level, again achieving DSA. Two OIRL would probably bridge the river in a number of places.

I do understand your argument, but many trails, by both industry and enforcing authorities, show that lifejackets can be a distraction on these occasions.

 

[oldgit]

Safety on the Thames has been constantly under review probably since the mid 19th century.
This possibly being the reason ..
Sinking of SS Princess Alice - Wikipedia

Anybody making a trip in lower Thames will go past the scene.
The remaining terraces of the pleasure gardens can still be seen on the river bank.

Rosherville Gardens - Wikipedia

 

[Old Crusty]

I think your best course of action is to direct your queries/theories at the MCA.

In an emergency you wont be considering age, gender and size, only evacuation. The reality is that such incidents are very rare, always have an impact on safety procedures (for example the Marchioness disaster) and have been risk assessed but it's not a perfect science.

 

[GabrielTurner]

I think your best course of action is to direct your queries/theories at the MCA.

In an emergency you wont be considering age, gender and size, only evacuation. The reality is that such incidents are very rare, always have an impact on safety procedures (for example the Marchioness disaster) and have been risk assessed but it's not a perfect science.

Yes will do, thanks.

 

[GabrielTurner]

Apart from first aid, there are just the two emergency situations on passenger boats on the non tidal river that are practised usually, fire and sinking.

In both cases, the plan will be to stuff the boat into the nearest bank and evacuate the passengers and crew ashore. It's unlikely that there will be time to issue lifejackets.

If the boat sank immediately mid stream, which is very unlikely, most of them would sit on the bottom allowing time to climb on the roof or upper deck and don LJs and get passengers into rescue boats - but, of course, the chances of having sufficient boats nearby is low. So stuffing it into the bank is the solution.

The MCA regs require a number of flotation devices aboard each passenger boat but its not enough for one each, hence the common skipper joke about first come, first served.

I'm still curious as to how exactly do you consider who should get a lifejacket in such a situation? Can you define what you mean by "flotation devices"? Did you actually mean life rings or mini liferafts, or did you mean lifejackets?

 

[Old Crusty]

Flotation devices: life jackets, buoyancy aids, life rings, life rafts. I don't consider who gets what from my chair at home, there is no 'one size fits all solution', you have to make swift decisions based upon the circumstances at the time and distribute the kit available.

Your query remains best placed with the MCA.