White Flares

PuffTheMagicDragon

PuffTheMagicDragon

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Recently I was involved in scrutineering some boats prior to a 600 mile offshore race. This is run under RORC regulations and therefore the boats had to have, inter alia, '4 white collision flares'. Most boats did not and had to buy them.
However, these flares are not required for races in Italy, France and I believe also Germany.
Now one might well say "These are the rules - like it or lump it!"
My reasoning is along these lines:
The boats all have 2 watertight high intensity torchlights (>200,000 candles). Therefore they are capable of lighting up their sails. Even if these are made of carbon fibre or kevlar, I believe that they would be more effective than a white flare in avoiding a collision.
What do you people think? Do you carry white flares? Have you ever used one in anger? Is this requirement a carry-over from days when there were no portable high intensity lights?
Fair Winds!


<hr width=100% size=1>Wally
 
I once had a crew that on the start of a foggy night crossing - took all the white flares - extracted the pins - so that they were ready for use - and put one in his pocket. Jesus - how stupid can you get!

I have often used a powerfull torch to light up the sails - I would say that the white flares would only be used in the last resort - or at a firework party when out of date. I don't think they are vital

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We don't have any white flares on board anymore but we do have a 2 million candlepower cordless (or corded) hand searchlight. I suspect the main use intended for white flares is to light the area in a search and rescue, rather than as a 'steamer scarer' or lighting the sails.

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I\'m sure you\'re not serious Chris,.....

about using old flares as fireworks.

Don't forget that marine pyrotechnics rely upon the sea to extinguish them (it also maximises burn-visibility time) but display fireworks are designed to be safely out long before they hit the deck.

Neighbours' lawns, flat roofs, boat covers and new garden decking (as well as your third party liability insurance) aren't at risk in your area tonight are they?

Steve Cronin

<hr width=100% size=1>The above is, like any other post here, only a personal opinion
 
Re: I\'m sure you\'re not serious Chris,.....

good point. the only parachute flare i've let off on nov 5th was still alight when it landed on the neighbour's roof. very embarassing.

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I also carry four white parachute search and rescue flares.

Try finding a MOB or DOB overboard at night, (dog over board).

Having used them many times when on the lifeboat I think all vessels embarking on night passge should carry them. Try finding a lifejacket in the water with 400000000 lux light, ne'er gonna happen.

Just my two penny

I think a white hand flare if needed will attract immeadite attention, the other skipper will instantaniously know what you are trying to say, light a torch and it may take many seconds to register a problem.

Just a thought

<hr width=100% size=1>Julian

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.topcatsail.co.uk/TC_IrishCruise_2003_00.html>Irish Cruise</A>
 
Robin
Your right, White flares are great for lighting up a search area and whats more if you have a MOB and he/she has the retroreflective tape on their clothing it shows up very very well. Torches, how ever powerful, are directional whereas flares aren't.
It's one reason why the RNLI carry so many white flares and pop them off with alarming regularity when searching for someone, its to get the light 900' up in the air which covers a very large area so that if theres any swell you don't have to be so concerned with hittting the MOB on the top of a wave. whereas a guzzillion candlepowered lamp 6' off the deck and very directional is limited you would need to be pointed directly at the MOB to see them.
However, having said that, once the MOB is located your guzzillion C/P lamp is brill for holding/pointing at them.
As for collision aviodence, whats wrong with switching on your deck lights?

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In 1971, I was off Boulogne at 2 am, returning from Britanny with a dead engine and only my 8-years old son as crew. I was pretty bushed and their was a lot of traffic around the nature of which I couldn't clearly establish (deck lights brighter than nav lights). I lit a handheld white flare and three searchlights were trained on my sailboat immediately afterwards. From then on, I had no more problems as all the other vessels (probably quite a few fishing boats amongst them) kept completely clear of my boat (bles their hearts !).
john

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Yes very true but the white flares carried on board most boats are hand flares not parachutes I think, so are no where near as effective in a search operation. Also I'm not happy about letting off fireworks on board unless I really had to - if SWMBO's ciggy ash sparks near the sails I get palpatations in the wallet.

For collision avoidance, I'm not sure the downward pointing deck lights (at lower spreader height) light the sails up enough, the steaming light is better but gives a wrong signal. Lighting the sails with a bright torch does work and the mighty monster certainly does with the added option of a quick flash towards the other vessel (in extremis).


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The point of white anti-collision flares is to be seen, and be certain you are seen.
If the big black collision machine hasn't seen you on radar or spotted your nav lights chances are slim that he will see the light of your torch reflected from your sails.
On the other hand an explosion of white light from a flare has a certain "Jesus F Christ!" effect, more so if it comes from a rocket flare across the bow. Which is why I carry 20 white Very cartridges in addition to a few hand held flares.
Better safe than sorry.

IanW


<hr width=100% size=1>Vertue 203, Patience
 
The point of white anti-collision flares is to be seen, and be certain you are seen.
If the big black collision machine hasn't seen you on radar or spotted your nav lights chances are slim that he will see the light of your torch reflected from your sails.
On the other hand an explosion of white light from a flare has a certain "Jesus F Christ!" effect, more so if it comes from a rocket flare across the bow. Which is why I carry 20 white Very cartridges in addition to a few hand held flares.
Better safe than sorry.

IanW


<hr width=100% size=1>Vertue 203, Patience
 
Re: I\'m sure you\'re not serious Chris,.....

Steve - good lord no!
Only flares that are safe are the hand held variety. parachute flares are a no no.

Chris


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Yes, I see your point. BUT, the RORC requirement quoted in my original posting calls for "White HAND (anti)collision flares" and not paras!
Fair Winds!

<hr width=100% size=1>Wally
 
Robin
If you find yourself in a down wind situation then a handheld white is better than a torch because they "twinkle" which will draw attention to you better than a torch.
As for "letting off fireworks" on board, may I suggest that you attend a RNLI flares demo. It will instill utter confidence in your abilitiy to let off fireworks and help the wife out too and hopefully protect your pocket<s>.

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I've only ever seen the very pistol wielded by duffel coated navy types on black and white war movies, As a matter of interest (leaving aside the thorny issue of licence requirements) how does the old very pistol compare with modern pyro's with regard to time of burn/light intensity/shelf life and cost of cartridges etc?

<hr width=100% size=1>"Naaa mate, she's made of tin"
 
Uhhm, difficult comparison on the whole, as there are so many variables. For instance US Coast Guard flares are not as well specified as the SOLAS flares we have in the UK.

However, typically
26.5mm Very cartridge. Burn time 5 ses. 10,000 Candela
38mm Very cartidge. Burn time 5 secs. 25,000 Candela
Pains Wessex Red Parachute Flare. Burn time 40 secs. 40,000 Candela

The Very cartridges dont go as high, and won't stay up as no parachute

Some pistol launched cartridges (there are other brands in the US) are available with parachutes, but still not as effective as most dedicated parachute flares.

Some flare cartridges don't cope with water well, unlike parachute flares which are better waterproofed.

Pistol cartridges often cheaper (but don't forget youv've still to buy the pistol!)

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" time of burn/light intensity/shelf life and cost of cartridges etc?"

Cartridges come in different sizes(lengths) including a parachute type so you can choose how much bang you want for your buck, so to speak. Shelf life depends on the type you buy as well, so some have a ‘life’ of three or four years or indefinite if they are well made (and kept). The cost is less than ‘real’ flares, much less , so you can afford to buy more. I bought 10 each of red and white two years ago, not that I needed to, just to be safe. So I now have 20 of each. Enough I hope to cover most situations. The cost of the pistol I can’t help you with. I bought mine 15 years ago from Thos Ffoulks and have no idea what they cost now. Not much I’d guess, mine was made in Italy, home of cheap guns. ;).

IanW.


<hr width=100% size=1>Vertue 203, Patience
 
Used a lot of 'em when I was on Seismic Ships ..... even though we had all the reds / nav lights etc. blazing away - the white flare fired off soon got attention. OK these were Very Pistol jobs - but remember the sheer brightness of the flare is something else !!


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I came - cos they said was FREE Guinness !
/forums/images/icons/cool.gif
 
Rely on the sea to extinguish ..... really ?

Having seen many a flare 'go down' and light up the water as it sinks - I think your statement is a bit off !!! No disrespect - but the flare is magnesium fueled and don't care about water when its burning !!! it has its own oxygen and fuel generation in the 'package' !!!!

Have even seen a certain party fire a flare at a 'bum-boat' in Africa ....... it burnt staright through the bottom of the dug-out and they had to paddle pretty smartly to try and get ashore !!!! .... didn't make it - -------


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I came - cos they said was FREE Guinness !
/forums/images/icons/cool.gif
 
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