hullabaloo
Well-Known Member
which machine (buffer) compound and wax / polish do you find best for removing and keeping oxidation at bay on a grp hull?
which compound and wax for blue grp hull ?
- Thread starter hullabaloo
- Start date
alt
Well-Known Member
I use 3M Finesse-It compound, and then Mer's Car Polish annually on my GRP. BUT, it's not oxidised. If bringing up old GRP, you'll need a stronger compound, maybe even a cutting compound
Marine Reflections
Well-Known Member
The correction process (the compound and polishing stages) for blue shouldn't be any different than for white, blue (dark colours) will just highlight errors more - swirl marks / ghost tails etc, or build ups.
If corrected well, the only difference would be in the wax finish.
Where you can allow a little more wax depth on white in one sitting, a blue surface can be a little more fussy and may highlight wax marks where applied.
For this reason some manufacturers of car waxes / polishes for example have specific products for darker colours, but they have so much petroleum distillates in them that they are not great for gel coat.
You can still use your favourite marine paste wax, but with thinner more uniformed applications.
Very pedantic but...
Imagine the application layer of wax going on with a bath towel type of cloth for example, there will be paint brush mark like height differences in the amount of product applied. The higher lines with more product on will show up against the dark background as most quality waxes are either white or yellow Carnuaba based.
The use of a quality hand foam application pad will provide a more even layer of wax and will leave you with a more uniformed reflection with higher clarity.
If your particular paste wax allows it and you aren't using an applicator pad, then simply starting to buff off the wax early can help, rather than leaving it for a couple of minutes to set /bloom. This would mean you are taking off the higher (un-cured parts) whilst they are soft, but this is wasteful and time consuming.
Some waxes take 24 hours before they are fully set and ready for buffing off, so getting the layer depth right is of great importance, but unless you are rolling up to pebble beach attempting to win a classic Ferrari concours there's not much to worry about.
In short - don't worry about it, use the same products for dark as you would for light.
There is a difference but it is probably only for surface freaks like me.
The products I use most often are listed below and are (IMHO) set slightly above the rest in terms of workability, ease of use etc, but really you could use anything that cuts, polishes and protects to gain good results.
Compounding - 3M high gloss
Polishing - 3M Finesse-it finishing material
Wax - 3M Ultra performance paste wax
The very thing that will help keep oxidation at bay is getting the correction process right rather than a miracle protection product / products.
This thread highlights and answers the above statement very well, by coincidence you contributed to it.
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?388367-Been-polishing
If corrected well, the only difference would be in the wax finish.
Where you can allow a little more wax depth on white in one sitting, a blue surface can be a little more fussy and may highlight wax marks where applied.
For this reason some manufacturers of car waxes / polishes for example have specific products for darker colours, but they have so much petroleum distillates in them that they are not great for gel coat.
You can still use your favourite marine paste wax, but with thinner more uniformed applications.
Very pedantic but...
Imagine the application layer of wax going on with a bath towel type of cloth for example, there will be paint brush mark like height differences in the amount of product applied. The higher lines with more product on will show up against the dark background as most quality waxes are either white or yellow Carnuaba based.
The use of a quality hand foam application pad will provide a more even layer of wax and will leave you with a more uniformed reflection with higher clarity.
If your particular paste wax allows it and you aren't using an applicator pad, then simply starting to buff off the wax early can help, rather than leaving it for a couple of minutes to set /bloom. This would mean you are taking off the higher (un-cured parts) whilst they are soft, but this is wasteful and time consuming.
Some waxes take 24 hours before they are fully set and ready for buffing off, so getting the layer depth right is of great importance, but unless you are rolling up to pebble beach attempting to win a classic Ferrari concours there's not much to worry about.
In short - don't worry about it, use the same products for dark as you would for light.
There is a difference but it is probably only for surface freaks like me.
The products I use most often are listed below and are (IMHO) set slightly above the rest in terms of workability, ease of use etc, but really you could use anything that cuts, polishes and protects to gain good results.
Compounding - 3M high gloss
Polishing - 3M Finesse-it finishing material
Wax - 3M Ultra performance paste wax
The very thing that will help keep oxidation at bay is getting the correction process right rather than a miracle protection product / products.
This thread highlights and answers the above statement very well, by coincidence you contributed to it.
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?388367-Been-polishing
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hullabaloo
Well-Known Member
After reading your reply, I have just spent half hour on your web site and i would say you know your stuff, thanks for your advice and i will follow your lead.
Marine Reflections
Well-Known Member
Thank you!
I assume going by the above link that the last time you polished and waxed you used a very fine polish (G10) and wax, but i'm guessing it has oxidised again?
gjgm
Well-Known Member
I would only add that by the time you have got to doing the wax, the day has got long and the pub is calling, so having a very easy to use wax is top of my list! I have found 3M scotchguard marine extremely easy to use by hand and if the surface is suitably prepared it seems to last well.
Not saying it is the only one to use...
Not saying it is the only one to use...
alt
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the tip, will purchase some of this for the more oxidised projects I need to work on
I normally use this first on the boat (after washing, obviously) that doesn't show signs of oxidisation... am I being tough enough? Or should I still be using the 3m high gloss as a compound first?
When I compound with Finesst-It, I polish with Mer's car polish - is this not up to the task of gelcoat?
Firefly625
Well-Known Member
been polishing thread
has just reminded me of the work I have to do over the next 5 weeks...
Seabird is all polished and looking good, but as for sale I will probably give another coat of polish to keep her looking her best. My parents boat is the PITA, 48ft and a 6ft keel meaning scaffold tower, just seeing my pics in the other thread started my arms aching.. re-launch is booked for 9th March, and I'm away on holiday for 10 days in between now and then.. oh gawd
Then my new to me Mitchell has a navy blue hull & is in the water and to get up to my standard needs a full compound and polish. She's still at Porto Solento at the moment on one of their stupid spring board tiny pontoon berths with just over a foot clearance between us and our neighbour so cannot get a dinghy around the boat to give a decent polish... so at least it saves me a job for the time being, but not surprisingly that's the one I really want to do!
I have been trying a few different products (well to be honest I have been getting a few freebies), Meguiars no.50 and then Meguiars no.45 to top it off. It is made especially for GRP so thought it may be pretty good and I think the Meguiars name is well respected..... I have not really had time to give them a good trial but on the little bit I did use the no.50 GRP cleaner seemed really good. When I use both fully I will report back.. anyone else any views on them??
http://www.meguiars.co.uk/category/217
has just reminded me of the work I have to do over the next 5 weeks...
Seabird is all polished and looking good, but as for sale I will probably give another coat of polish to keep her looking her best. My parents boat is the PITA, 48ft and a 6ft keel meaning scaffold tower, just seeing my pics in the other thread started my arms aching.. re-launch is booked for 9th March, and I'm away on holiday for 10 days in between now and then.. oh gawd
Then my new to me Mitchell has a navy blue hull & is in the water and to get up to my standard needs a full compound and polish. She's still at Porto Solento at the moment on one of their stupid spring board tiny pontoon berths with just over a foot clearance between us and our neighbour so cannot get a dinghy around the boat to give a decent polish... so at least it saves me a job for the time being, but not surprisingly that's the one I really want to do!
I have been trying a few different products (well to be honest I have been getting a few freebies), Meguiars no.50 and then Meguiars no.45 to top it off. It is made especially for GRP so thought it may be pretty good and I think the Meguiars name is well respected..... I have not really had time to give them a good trial but on the little bit I did use the no.50 GRP cleaner seemed really good. When I use both fully I will report back.. anyone else any views on them??
http://www.meguiars.co.uk/category/217
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Trundlebug
Well-Known Member
I can't comment on the meguiars products I'm afraid, the ones that have caught my eye recently have been these
http://gtechniq.com/products/marine/
Nanotechnology seems to be the buzzword of the moment in products for the future, and as my grandfather always said "The advert speaks highly".
Does anyone have any experience of GTechniq products?
http://gtechniq.com/products/marine/
Nanotechnology seems to be the buzzword of the moment in products for the future, and as my grandfather always said "The advert speaks highly".
Does anyone have any experience of GTechniq products?
gjgm
Well-Known Member
I was recommended maguires flagship products and have used them.. seem fine but I prefer 3M.
Anyway, when I observed the Mag was quite expensive and questioned if it was worth it I got the response:
"well, I don't know if the product is any better but the price makes me feel alot better!"
I do think there is alot of truth in that comment with boat cleaning products
richardbrennan
Well-Known Member
I used the gtechniq products on my dark blue hull last year and so far the results have been encouraging; a friend with a white hull also used them with equally good results. The polish seems much less aggressive than normal compounding products, but lifts the blooming out of the blue hull with ease. UV protection comes from a second product used separately, this is very watery and needs to be buffed up to get the shine.
hullabaloo
Well-Known Member
Yes your assumption is 100% right, even down to the G10, its not as bad as last year yet but its on its way. so i think we will blast it with the 3M high gloss,
thanks,
Marine Reflections
Well-Known Member
Are you being tough enough?
This is a good question and very relevant, I wish there was an easy answer, but I'm afraid it's like explaining to someone how to hit a golf ball perfectly.
As per normal there are many variants to this, compounds offer different results due to the pad you are using, how fast it is spinning, temperature, if the surface has protection still in place, how long the product is worked and also how much pressure is applied to the pad whilst working it. These are just some of the variants, when you start adding water or applying too much product and the condition of the gel coat to start with, it gets nearly impossible to determine a standard.
It no easy task to determine if you need to compound first, or if you can skip it and move on to the next stage.
I can tell you with no ego that it takes a bit of an eye for detail, plenty of practice, or to wait and see the durability of the last effort.
The same is true when deciding between colour sanding gel coat or compounding.
You have to determine if a stage / pass will remove all the defects in the gel coat, if 'the cut' will get beyond / below of all the oxidation, tiny scratches, or any other defects you are trying to remove, the stages that follow are spent recovering from that first stage.
This of course depends to a large degree on the level of results you are after, a brand new surface is just the start when it comes to gaining perfect clarity, durability and performance.
It is good practice to use the least aggressive approach first and check for results, but identifying and reading defects is a bit tricky in itself, this is largely due to light conditions. You have to create the right conditions to read.
I'm going into too much detail here, but suffice to say, I would advise that you start with the least aggressive and see how that fairs. So your method of Finnesse it - then wax was sound.
Pop some pics up? either on here or PM and I'll happily try to help.
The downside of not being tough enough is that quite often the second stage finer products have oils in them that assist with the working process, these oils will fill in the defects rather than remove them. This will give the appearance that the surface is ready for wax, when it isn't. Once these oils that were filling the defects dry up, the surface will be back to where it was in the first place.
Likewise, quite often I see people course compounding when all that was needed was a fine polishing stage.
I watched a marketing video recently for a boat cleaning / polishing business that highlights this quite well.
The guys in the video were trying to demonstrate how to bring an old tired gel coat back to life.
They showed how oxidised the surface was and how poor the reflection.
Taking some fine sandpaper, they sanded the surface 'without prep' so you can hear the dirt getting caught between the paper and gel coat, so of course scratching the gel and they followed this with course compounding, they didn't follow up with any further stages.
"Let's take a look at the final results" they said, "aren't they great" Please call this number if you want your boat doing etc, etc and the video ended with a close up of the results.
Sure, there was a difference in reflection and what appeared to be a restored surface, but what had just happened was a serious assault on someone's pride and joy.
Firstly, the surface wasn't oxidised at all, the gel coat on the dark hull was simply covered in water spots. Underneath the water spots the surface had perfectly good clarity.
All that was needed was a de-scaler, viakal etc and the surface would have been near perfect. Instead it was now covered in scratches and swirls from poor sanding and compounding.
They had actually left the owner with a considerable amount of work, just to correct it back to where it was in the first place, minus some gel coat depth.
Not only had they no doubt charged for this, but they had made it into an advert!
I guess the point I am making here is the importance of correct identification of what is actually needed, then a game plan can be formed. If you are doing it yourself, this saves you time, effort and maintains full gel coat thickness.
As a rule, you should only compound a surface that has defects, it is a form of correction and not part of maintenance.
See Fireflys thread linked above, the hard work has been done and he is reaping the benefits.
If you don't know how to tell if you need to compound, then certainly by far, the safest option and the easiest is to fine polish.
You can always do the same next season, each time you will be closer to 'beyond or below' the defects, but it would be in a safe manner.
I don't have that luxury of working over seasons, people want results now.
Despite the above, on the other side of the coin is 'false finishing', where you think you have corrected, but in reality you have simply wet the surface long term. Although this is still the better step forward than being too aggressive as the surface will still be the same, not correcting enough is much better than correcting too much.
A simple video of this false finishing or long term wetting here.
Just a a note on Mer polish that you are using. It is fine for gel coat, in fact a good product, you can also apply in the wet.
I guess it is very similar to Autoglyms super resin Polish, in that it is classed as a cleaner / protectant.
You should notice the difference in performance and durability however when using a paste wax, also a paste wax goes on and buffs off much easier, and will bead water far better.
Tony
alt
Well-Known Member
Here's a pic of the boatcurrently
Marine Reflections
Well-Known Member
It's oxidised Alt, but only lightly, you will still get a reflection due to the angle the pic was taken from.
If the pic was taken square on it would be a Matt finish, yes?
That said it looks as though the surface is of good clarity, by this I mean the reflection isn't distorted, if you look at the lines in the reflection, say the roof of the building it is straight. This means you are only into the later stages of correction and should easily be able to gain a first class mirror finish.
When you polished with Finesse-it last time, can I ask what pads you used?
I'd be tempted to say you could use FI again, but only if on a 100% wool twist pad.
If you used a foam pad then certainly it would be doing more filling rather than removing oxidation.
To help with the above, a kind of cut level guide, 0 being no cut and 10 being a heavier cut:
FI and soft foam pad 1
FI and medium foam pad 3
FI and hard foam pad 5
FI and soft yellow wool pad 10
FI and med white wool pad 15
I say ten being heavy cut, but of course it's not, as we are using a finishing product, 10 being optimum working cut for that product.
I gave the white wool pad 15 as this choice of pad to product would introduce unwanted defects.
If we were to start with a coarser compound, the difference in results from the different pads would give similar increments of increasing cut.
Using a course compound with a soft foam pad would not offer that product the optimum working cut for that product as a white wool pad would.
If the pic was taken square on it would be a Matt finish, yes?
That said it looks as though the surface is of good clarity, by this I mean the reflection isn't distorted, if you look at the lines in the reflection, say the roof of the building it is straight. This means you are only into the later stages of correction and should easily be able to gain a first class mirror finish.
When you polished with Finesse-it last time, can I ask what pads you used?
I'd be tempted to say you could use FI again, but only if on a 100% wool twist pad.
If you used a foam pad then certainly it would be doing more filling rather than removing oxidation.
To help with the above, a kind of cut level guide, 0 being no cut and 10 being a heavier cut:
FI and soft foam pad 1
FI and medium foam pad 3
FI and hard foam pad 5
FI and soft yellow wool pad 10
FI and med white wool pad 15
I say ten being heavy cut, but of course it's not, as we are using a finishing product, 10 being optimum working cut for that product.
I gave the white wool pad 15 as this choice of pad to product would introduce unwanted defects.
If we were to start with a coarser compound, the difference in results from the different pads would give similar increments of increasing cut.
Using a course compound with a soft foam pad would not offer that product the optimum working cut for that product as a white wool pad would.
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alt
Well-Known Member
Wow, so much more to this than I ever realised.
Recently I used Finesse-It (The black bottle) with a medium foam pad. The reason I liked using the foam pad is that i'd compound quite 'wet' in the sense that I would use a water spray bottle while compounding.
It is only recently on videos online i've seen people compound with a wool mat - it just doesn't compute in my mind, but it obviously does work.
What I would like to do is compound with the 3M High Gloss and a medium foam pad, then a dose of Finesse-It, and then Mers Car polish... but from what you say, that wouldn't make sense?!
I am more comfortable compounding with the foam pads (and some water spray), should I be learning to do so with the wool mat?
Recently I used Finesse-It (The black bottle) with a medium foam pad. The reason I liked using the foam pad is that i'd compound quite 'wet' in the sense that I would use a water spray bottle while compounding.
It is only recently on videos online i've seen people compound with a wool mat - it just doesn't compute in my mind, but it obviously does work.
What I would like to do is compound with the 3M High Gloss and a medium foam pad, then a dose of Finesse-It, and then Mers Car polish... but from what you say, that wouldn't make sense?!
I am more comfortable compounding with the foam pads (and some water spray), should I be learning to do so with the wool mat?
Marine Reflections
Well-Known Member
In short, yes.
I can only describe the system I use.
The system I use is what I have progressed to and understand fully as being the very best for clarity of reflection and the highest durability of the surface.
I recall decades ago as a rookie adding water to a foam pad and making a mess, but things have moved on. The system you are using is a tried and tested technique. Though IMO it is flawed if you wanted the best possible results.
The white 100% wool pad is the correct choice for that 3M cutting compound.
Dare I complicate things and state that the same job (compounding) can be achieved without a wool pad or compound, but with a 6000 grit 3M Trizact disc on a dual action sander with even better / safer, more predictable results, oops, I just did.
I guess, it is safe to say that the industry is changing and I don't expect for a moment that there are many other pro's who will be changing their compounding techniques any time soon just because of the above, I don't know of anyone else who does, but they will eventually.
Anyway...
On gel coat, a foam pad should really only be used with exceptionally fine finishing products.
If you were to use a foam pad with a cutting compound, then all that really happens is you are reducing the cutting ability of that compound.
The reason for this is simple; imagine if you will the grit is likened to some frozen peas....bare with me.
The frozen peas, (grit) when pressed against the surface with a foam pad will be absorbed by the foam, so only a small percentage of the peas are exposed and actively cutting.
What happens here is that the foam gets filled with unused product, this then heats up, dries and the addition of water is used to maintain slip.
It heats up because the open cell structure of the foam pad can't reduce the working temperature anymore as they are filled with product that has turned clay like.
The problem with adding water is that it flings onto everything.
It is easy to tell if someone has used products with water as there will be thousands of spots on nearby boats. I am constantly observing this practice from 'professionals', but it doesn't make it right.
If you are comfortable using foam pads to compound, even adding water, it's worth mentioning that you are not doing anything 'wrong' so to speak.
It is a technique used by many with good results.
There are some positives to using a foam pad for cutting (despite what I've written above) certainly for DIY.
The reduced cutting ability of a foam pad also leaves a more uniformed finish, one with less swirl marks that would need to be progressed out by later stages if using the wool pad.
Many people (even experienced professionals) find it difficult to remove the swirls created by the wool pads, the reasons for this are many.
A foam pad helps an awful lot here, but really it is due to simply taking away the cutting ability of the product used.
Unless you were after a reflection you could shave in and exceptionally more durability in the surface, there's no reason to get this pedantic about about the gel coat. Use what you feel comfortable with, as I said, you are not doing anything wrong.
Tony
