which boat to aim for?

[Grunter]

Looking to buy my first proper boat and I have been resisting the temptation to dive in and get the first bargain I came across, which is just as well as I have changed my mind more than once in the last few months. Budget started at 5k then managed to up that to 10k which gave me some more options.
However, my situation has changed such that i would now be looking for something with the emphasis on liveaboard qualities. To that end I have been looking at the 29 or 30 footers, with the LM30 being one that I particulary like the look of (sadly very much out of budget). back to real world and in reverse order I am thinking kent 28, kingfisher30, snappie 29, mirage 29.
Obviously I am not likely to get anything that does not require work and that is not a problem. what is a problem is that most searches for info tend to come up with people asking for help with a problem (well no one posts that their boat is fine and they have no issues this week do they?), which makes it seem like the boats are 'bad' so I am looking for some real world experience or even some suggestions of others that I should be looking at.

I am not in a rush to buy and I have plenty of time to decide on the right boat. Still going through a break up at the moment which has seen the budget reduced to a rather embarrasing zero, which is why I want something to aim for. Typically I came across a roamer marine 11 ketch project for 10k yesterday, which I believe would have made a great liveaboard, but maybe not enough of a sailer? anyone any experience of these?

 

[Pete7]

How important are sailing qualities compared to live aboard space? because I was thinking about a Colvic 29 motor sailor might fit your need.


http://youtu.be/jMtjpADGz7k

Owners forum:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cwowners/

 

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

Spend time looking around boat yards and talking to boat owners who will be happy to tell you the advantages and disadvantages of their yachts. There is no such a thing as bad boat; all designs are a compromise of something.

The important issue is to know what you need to do and what you want from the boat; Bilge / long / fin keels; heavy / medium / light displacement; 60s, 70s, 80s, designs; coastal sailer or blue water; living space etc. Some yachts are more expensive to keep than other in terms of mooring requirements and maintenance. (mine is 70's design and bilge keel hence low cost mooring and upkeep, solid, slow but roomy and comfortable. Once you know the yacht's design limitations and your own, then you can start having fun.

You can have a bit of everything, you can have one or the other, but you can not have everything.

 

[mcframe]

You can have a bit of everything, you can have one or the other, but you can not have everything.

And if you had everything, where would you keep it?

Which leads onto:
Has the OP somewhere to keep the boat?
How much will that cost?
What about winter craneage, etc?

 

[NickRobinson]

Sounds like we are looking at the same boats!

Nick

 

[Grunter]

How important are sailing qualities compared to live aboard space? because I was thinking about a Colvic 29 motor sailor might fit your need.

I will have another look at them, The best way to describe my attitude to the required sailing qualities is that it will save fuel so I can occaisionally go further afield without paying to watch a gauge drop. Not having much sailing experience I have nothing to compare to so the first one is going to be great to me anyway.

The important issue is to know what you need to do and what you want from the boat;

Sorry I forgot to add this, Keel - bilge needed I think for lock clearance to marina, displacement - with me aboard it will be heavy anyhow.. fees at local club are only by length, so bigger beam for liveaboard room is a plus. Nearly all maintenance I can do myself including engines so not put off by work for the right boat. the period of boat does not bother me too much other than I would not want something of an age where the insurance demand surveys every 5 mins. I would say mostly coastal but with capability to go further afield if needed. solid, slow but roomy and comfortable sounds good to me.

last but not least,
Has the OP somewhere to keep the boat?
How much will that cost?
What about winter craneage, etc?

yes, at the local club, the lift in /out is pretty cheap and mooring/berthing/storage cost less than the tax on the cars I will be getting rid of.

thanks all for the input so far.

 

[Grunter]

Spend time looking around boat yards and talking to boat owners who will be happy to tell you the advantages and disadvantages of their yachts. There is no such a thing as bad boat; all designs are a compromise of something.
.

Forgot to comment on this bit, I have been around a few yards and most people are only too happy to tell me how great their boats are..

as for no such thing as a bad boat.. you should see the 25ft home build that is made out of plastic pipes.. even to the novice such as myself it can be seen to behave much like a ping pong ball.. and thats in the marina..

 

[alahol2]

I thought this looked an interesting proposition.

 

[SP2]

the period of boat does not bother me too much other than I would not want something of an age where the insurance demand surveys every 5 mins.

Well there will come a time when your boat will need surveying (and not every 5 minutes but more likely every 5 years) - and surely it is better to have someone who knows what they are doing checking the structure and equipment to make sure it is safe. It is as much for your own safety (and that of your crew) as for the insurance company. I would rather be told there is a potential problem rather than find out when sailing.

I would be surprised if the boats on your list did not require surveys every 5 years and you should have a survey before you buy.

Of course you could go to an insurer for 3rd party cover only and you should be able to find one who would insure on that basis without a requirement for surveys. Our boat is only worth £6-£7K but I would not dream of skimping on anything safety related, or of having her adequately insured.

 

[Grunter]

Well there will come a time when your boat will need surveying (and not every 5 minutes but more likely every 5 years) - and surely it is better to have someone who knows what they are doing checking the structure and equipment to make sure it is safe. It is as much for your own safety (and that of your crew) as for the insurance company. I would rather be told there is a potential problem rather than find out when sailing.

I would be surprised if the boats on your list did not require surveys every 5 years and you should have a survey before you buy.

Of course you could go to an insurer for 3rd party cover only and you should be able to find one who would insure on that basis without a requirement for surveys. Our boat is only worth £6-£7K but I would not dream of skimping on anything safety related, or of having her adequately insured.

Of course, I have no intention of skimping on insurance, which is why I was just stating that I would want to steer clear of anything that would have any specific extra requirements. Every 5 years is fine with me and common sense. Its just I have heard of some older craft needing far more frequent surveys than that, I dont know why, I was just assuming it was an age related or construction related issue.
I have a friend with a snappie 26 and his insurance wanted a survey to take out a policy, he remained with the same company and at the 5 year point where the survey was due they told him he did not need another one to continue his insurance. So I took it that it was different depending on boat type/age? maybe now prices are down they dont value it as much as it was? I dont know. I just wanted to state that it is something that I have given consideration to.


Pete, that colvic watson in the video is very, very nice, but I imagine quite out of budget.. maybe I should aim for that but see what turns up..

 

[Kelpie]

The best way to describe my attitude to the required sailing qualities is that it will save fuel so I can occaisionally go further afield without paying to watch a gauge drop.

This speaks volumes. If you want a boat as a vehicle to go in straight lines from A to B, be prepared to use your engine a lot. To the point where a motor boat might actually be a better bet. But if you actually enjoy the gurgle of water under the forefoot, the gentle heel to the breeze, and changing your destination with every wind shift, then you will find yourself sailing an awful lot more.

Keel - bilge needed I think for lock clearance to marina

Do you have an actual maximum draft figure to work towards? If you don't plan on going out very often you will be able to put up with deeper draft.

 

[Seajet]

Grunter,

beware that once you live on a boat and establish some comfort features like shore power and belongings strewn around, it becomes a bit of a chore to actually go sailing !

So unless you plan to go around the UK or something, you may well soon find you have a houseboat; it may be best to admit this to yourself from the outset and regard your base boat as 'mobile if I have to move', with a dinghy for fun ?

At the 30' size you mention, living aboard is quite possible but will be distinctly cosy.

Your no.1 enemy is condensation, do everything you can to have a source of dry heat; a wood burning stove has a lot going for it.

Sewage disposal will need consideration, using a sea toilet in marinas is increasingly frowned on.

If you choose the right insurance company, regular surveys may not be required.

Have a look at the liveaboard forum, there's a chap planning on living aboard in Falmouth ( Frueles ? sorry I forget the name ) who has received a lot of good advice lately, and could probably pass it on.

Above all, I hope you take this opportunity and change in life's direction to have fun, good luck !

 

[BlueSkyNick]

When I read the title of this thread, I thought it was going to be another Colregs thread started by a motorboater !

 

[Tranona]

There is a long thread on Liveaboard (middle of P2) started by Zanzibar who posed almost the same question as you. As you will see he is now living on a boat. The general topic comes up regularly there, so worth a search.

Think you will find the criteria change as you get realistic about actually living on a boat full time on a limited budget in the UK environment (in its widest sense, not just the weather!). Space, warmth, dryness, access to services necessary for living - particularly if you also need to keep up with a regular job, become much more important than say, performance or good looks!

The actual boat becomes relatively unimportant, so fixing on a specific model, or even a narrow range is rather pointless. All of the boats will be either old, need a lot of work, unpopular with others, or even all three. That is why they will be "affordable" - because in general very few people want big old boats. So, you just have to look at anything that meets the basic size and space requirements, then buy the one that needs the least amount of work and is either where you want to be based or easy to move there. You may well find it difficult to get all risks insurance on such a boat if you are living on it - the risks are too high and the value too low for an insurance company to consider. Third Party will be less of a problem.

 

[Pete7]

If the budget is limited then a Ferro hull might give more space per buck. If you can live with a fin keel this is for sale in Gosport. Wouldn't have thought there will be much difference in draft between a 30ft bilge keel yacht and this. Little over priced given its condition as there is another very nice one in the Med for £13k that has been for sale for a while. However, for someone who is single the layout might work, particularly if the cockpit had a new all over cover creating extra room.

Gosport one:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hartley-3...ing_Boats_ET&hash=item20bfba526f#ht_500wt_994

There are more pictures on the Boatshed website.

Med one:

http://sycrystal.blogspot.com/2008/05/hartley-32-ferro-cement-sloop.html

 

[V1701]

I live happily on an Albin Vega 27, reengined one is under £10k but for a bilge keeler liveaboard around £10k how about a Cobra 850, one here for £9k...

 

[Grunter]

Thanks for the input guys, plenty food for thought.

not in a good place right now so I am going to refrain from posting for a bit.

 

[ukmctc]

Grunter,

beware that once you live on a boat and establish some comfort features like shore power and belongings strewn around, it becomes a bit of a chore to actually go sailing !

So unless you plan to go around the UK or something, you may well soon find you have a houseboat; it may be best to admit this to yourself from the outset and regard your base boat as 'mobile if I have to move', with a dinghy for fun ?

At the 30' size you mention, living aboard is quite possible but will be distinctly cosy.

Your no.1 enemy is condensation, do everything you can to have a source of dry heat; a wood burning stove has a lot going for it.

Sewage disposal will need consideration, using a sea toilet in marinas is increasingly frowned on.

If you choose the right insurance company, regular surveys may not be required.

Have a look at the liveaboard forum, there's a chap planning on living aboard in Falmouth ( Frueles ? sorry I forget the name ) who has received a lot of good advice lately, and could probably pass it on.

Above all, I hope you take this opportunity and change in life's direction to have fun, good luck !

You can liveaboard anything and be comfotable, I started on a 23 foot Hunter701 fin keel, then a Folk boat 28 foot, then a Trapper 500 28 foot, and now Moody 33 mk1.
Maina's have no problems with liveaboard seatoilets, leastways none I've stayed at.
Regular surveys, generally you get one when you buy, then usually not required again until the insurance company asks for one.
Bay Marine insurance, they are excellent for liveaboard cover, and no problem with all year round sailing cover and liability covering marinas and moorings, piles and swing.
Heating, an eberspacher D3 or D4 hot air, and as a backup an electric blow heater, and use a dehumidifier, air boat regularly, damp is no problem.
Shore power should be standard on any boat, so no problems there, just unplug and go.
Going out for a sail in winter is great, just go, no fuss just a load of jealous folk on the hard.

take the plunge and do it, I did and have never regretted it.

 

[Seajet]

You can liveaboard anything and be comfotable, I started on a 23 foot Hunter701 fin keel, then a Folk boat 28 foot,

25 foot if a normal Folkboat

then a Trapper 500 28 foot, and now Moody 33 mk1.
Maina's have no problems with liveaboard seatoilets, leastways none I've stayed at.

An increasing problem and liveaboards tend to be in a position where they don't want to upset people


Regular surveys, generally you get one when you buy, then usually not required again until the insurance company asks for one.
Bay Marine insurance, they are excellent for liveaboard cover, and no problem with all year round sailing cover and liability covering marinas and moorings, piles and swing.
Heating, an eberspacher D3 or D4 hot air, and as a backup an electric blow heater, and use a dehumidifier, air boat regularly, damp is no problem.

Eberspachers can be noisy and use a surprising amount of electrical power

Shore power should be standard on any boat,

Not for normal weekend / holiday cruisers unless they're marina-mad !

so no problems there, just unplug and go.
Going out for a sail in winter is great, just go, no fuss j

apart from dismantling your normal liveaboard stuff

ust a load of jealous folk on the hard.

take the plunge and do it, I did and have never regretted it.

I lived aboard my Anderson 22 for a while in winter with thick snow on deck, along with a girlfrend and chum; condensation was the killer, do everything you can to combat that.

Not everyone can afford running Eberspachers & dehumidifiers all the time, the OP has mentioned he may be a little cash-strapped; hence my mention of solid fuel stoves, which can be very pleasant as well as relatively cheap to run, if lucky it may be possible to source the odd bit of tree !

 

[doug748]

I lived aboard my Anderson 22 for a while,.... along with a girlfrend and chum....

You old dog!