Which boat for learning on?

[Windy_Blow]

I’d appreciate some advice on which boat would be most suitable for learning on with small children. My wife and I did a bit of sailing before we had kids – competent crew courses, day skipper, etc. But this was some time ago and I wouldn’t say that we were competent on the water - although we learnt enough to know that we enjoy sailing /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif We would like to get our own boat and start learning properly. I think the only real way to learn is practical experience on your own boat. I always found on the RYA courses that I never really felt as though I was controlling the boat. Also not too many people would want two inexperienced people on their boat with small children (can’t think why not /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif). So we’re left with getting our own. The problem is, I would like to take our children out on the water as well, and most importantly for us all to be as safe as possible. If we get a smaller boat then my impression is that the kids won’t be as safe as they would be if we got a larger boat with a bigger cockpit. But then we don’t want to start learning on a big boat – mainly because we don’t have the money. Has anyone else been in this situation or have any suggestions?

We have 2 two-year-old girls and a 4-month-old baby, and don’t really want to spend over £10K on our learner boat, which if all goes well, we would envisage keeping for two or three years and hopefully get up to coastal skipper level doing mainly day sails in inshore/estuary waters.

 

[Ecosse120]

I would suggest to start with that you try some trial sails to check that your children are happy to sail. It may be worth chartering a boat for a weekend. I have a four year old daughter and we sailed a few times just to check she was happy. One word of caution is that my daughter and I know others with children of a similar age get bored after a couple of hours so it is worth bearing that in mind before spending lots of money.

 

[Talbot]

Small children get bored and need space for safe playing. They need to see out (not just water or sky)

Try a cat and see if they meet the requirement

 

[TiggerToo]

I'd second Ecosse. Try out with the family chartering a boat for the weekend. Some charter companies offer a skipper who will help out if needed. We have three kids 13, 11 and 3 and did it this way. We now own a boat which is more expensive that your initial budget, but is a good compromise of space, comfort and safety.
In my opinion, cruising ground is particularly important to cater for boredom (not too much of a problem usually), safety and alternative options in case of bad weather. For these reasons we are very happy with the West Country: Plymouth is an excellent base that offers short hops to lovely harbours both West and East, as well as a good range of quieter inland waterways with plenty of sailing opportunities when the sea is too rough for an outing with the family. There is an excellent book out there (sorry can't remember the title) about sailing with children. One of the good rules of thumb is to sail about 1 hour per year of age. We have exceeded this at times (especially with the little one - it does not really apply until they become toddlers), but it is a rough guide. there are always lots of things to do also for kids on a boat. It is important that you and your partner feel confident enough to be relaxed most of the time and enjoy the experience. That is what it is all about!

 

[Sea Devil]

lots of good advice - all sensible... However the first cabin boat I had after a self built Mirror Dinghy was a Galion 22 - there is one for sale on the 'Boats for Sale' section here for £3,500.

Frankly I never regretted buying it - even though all I had done was a shore based RYA yacht-masters course and not finished that because of work!

We had two small children - little bit older than yours - 3 weeks after I got it I went to Cherbourg and back with a friend - then with my wife and kids that summer - CI's and Weymouth all out of the Hamble.

Owning a boat is wonderful fun - The hardest part is finding somewhere to park it - somewhere you can afford.... This is not sensible advice but it is the fun route and if they all end up hating it then you should be able to sell this sort of boat for more or less what you gave for it.

I think avoid new lightweight glittery boats - Gallion's are good, Westerly are good, Moody are good - I am talking little ones 22-25. You will learn more in one summer in your own boat than in years of courses or other peoples.

Watch the weather and do the big trips without the family at first... but enjoy!

Michael

 

[FullCircle]

Well, I will assume that you already know you want a boat, so I will start there.

If your TOTAL budget is 10k, you will need to get a boat for about 8k, and in reasonable nick too, as you will not want to spend entire seasons in the yard just to get it in the water.

I will also place you on the East Coast - 2 reasons, one is that moorings can be had cheaper than the South Coast, and there are plenty of places to go in a season with kids not more than 4 or 5 hours daisy-chaining up the coast. Bilge or Lift keels are the favoured order in this area.

My top contender for first, safe boat with cheap running costs and very good all round accomodation is the Leisure 23SL (not the 23, just the SL). Come with a diesel preferably, but some have outboards. Excellent little coastal cruiser, and easily passed on when you are finished with it, as they have a ready market and a healthy resale.

Just squeezing into this will be the Jaguar 25 . Lots of home fitted ones out there, but again, a well proven boat. Not so loved in resale as the 23SL.

The Virgo Voyager and Newbridge Venturer are also worthy at the price.

Then perhaps a Pegasus 700, an 800 if you can squeeze them on price.

There are many more out there, and some will disagree with the 23-25ft length I have chosen. Thats where I started with 3 kids and it was great fun until I wanted to invest a lot more!

 

[Allan]

I would agree with all of the above. My first boat is an Etap 22i which although a squeeze for your family has the advantage of a trailor. This would allow you not only to find if you enjoy sailing but also explore more places. I would not recommend trailing daily. I have done this and it is hard work! I have found the best way to be select an area, contact the local club and find a mooring for 1-6 weeks. When I lived in France I did this in North Brittany, South Brittany and the Med. The Etap being unsinkable was a great help with my partner, was not happy on the water.
Another advantage of trailor sailing is the cost reduction of having the boat at or near home when not sailing.
I towed my boat with a 406 and a Laguna without problem.
Now I have learnt I am moving up to a boat I can live on.
Allan

 

[dulcibella]

All good ideas, but leave enough cash spare to buy the children an Optimist (or even one each) so that they can learn sailing basics the right way, understanding wind, sail trim and tide without the get-out clause of an engine. When they graduate to sailing a cruiser they will be well prepared for it.

 

[woody001]

if you can save a bit more, say 16 ish, you can get a nice carter 30, super boat and will keep your family save.

 

[owen]

charter is the best route. if you and your wife have done day skipper you should be able to charter a small yacht. I would suggest some one like cornish cruising in falmouth who have some small yachts on their books.you can sail safely within falmouth estuary , and if you feel confident sail across the sea to helford. its all 2 yr old kids need and it will ensure you make the right decision when/ if you buy .i chartered a westerly centaur from the company for a few yrs and was v happy

 

[Wansworth]

Lots of little bilge keelersfor under 5k,Avoid hairy momments as can put kids off.At the age of 5 they should be able to manage a rowing boat and an optimist,which you can tow begind your bilge keeler.

 

[Windy_Blow]

Thanks for all your good advice. Chartering is certainly an option, but I believe the only way to really learn is to get out on our own small boat. (And I only have the theoretical Day Skiper, not practical.) I think a couple of hours will be enough for the kids initially on each trip, and I will look at the suggestions on types of boat. A trailer-sailor is certainly something I will look at.

And yes, once the girls are a bit older I think they would enjoy dinghy sailing (but in a couple of years time!). As for location, I think the Medway area is probably cheaper than the South Coast, and more protected?

 

[st599]

Rather than an optimist, have a look at the Laser Funboat - very stable and used by the kids clubs at companies like sunsail.

 

[Mirelle]

Not exactly which boat...

I do agree that owning a small boat, not chartering, is the way to learn properly.

I think that £5K will be plenty to spend on a first boat.

Now, you won't be wanting to spend too long in the car, nor will you want to be getting out to an exposed mooring in a dinghy, with three little ones.

So...I think the place to start will be the Medway or the Swale and the creeks leading into them - not far from Croydon, and with a good number of half-tide marinas and mud berths where you can keep a shallow draft boat economically.

A mud berth is not a bad arrangement if you have small children - it's safe, and there are things that they can do ashore whilst waiting for the tide.

A good auxiliary engine is worth having - inboard diesel for preference.

Don't forget that there are plenty of wooden boats that meet this spec. Consider, in particular, the Kestrel.

 

[aitchw]

Re: Not exactly which boat...

[ QUOTE ]
I do agree that owning a small boat, not chartering, is the way to learn properly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Totally agree on this and others of your points.

In your own boat you not only learn faster but you learn stuff that only owning your own boat teaches. Anyway, it's massive fun made all the better for not being beholden to someone else.

 

[billmacfarlane]

I don't quite follow your logic re safety and size of boat. With your budget there's only ever going to be a couple of feet difference in the size of the boats you shortlist. What's more important is the ergonomics of the cockpit and what shelter it offers. Little fingers can get easily trapped in mainsheet tracks, etc. and little children need shelter especially if it's nippy. Take it one step at a time. Don't even think about buying a boat yet, but charter a smallish one for a weekend with the 4 of you aboard and see how you get on. If you decide sailing is for you I'd try and push the budget up a notch and go for the ubiquitous Westerly Centaur or perhaps the Pegasus 800. With the ages of the children I'd say a pontoon mooring is a must. It'll cost more but be far more convenient for your family.

 

[colvic987]

go and charter a boat over the summer hols, how about trying blakes/highland sailing on the caledonian canal,(moody 28),if the kids get bored you can stop off at plenty of places, and as you are new to sailing, you will have plenty of safe area to practice, and no tides to have to deal with, it would be an ideal safe place to see if everyone else in the family would enjoy your emerging hobby, if they do not then you have only lost the cost of the holiday and a bit of adventure.

The amount of times that families have ended the holiday due to incompatiablity of the sailing dream is a reality, especially with young children, so try it out first as a family, so you can cut your loses sooner than later.

But if all the family like it then venture further afield, try sailing on the coastal areas, believe me there is a vast difference between the two.

If everything goes well after about 3 years then start looking for your boat, by then you should know a little more about what sort of sailing you are going to enjoy, and the sort of boat you might need, you can always move up to the offshore sailing when the kids are older.

Hope this has given you a little to go on with, it is easier to break them in gently to the sailing, then to scare them witless the first time and never set foot on a boat again. good luck

 

[Ariadne]

Our first family boat was a Carter 33, very safe, very forgiving, easy to sail. My kids loved it (aged 3 + 5 when we bought it). Its for sale as well. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Biggest tip.

Sail for 1 day spend 1 day ashore. Look for a mooring/berth within easy reach of childrens amusments (parks, good beaches etc) then the kids will associate boats with 'nice' kids things. Make their first overnight afloat an adventure. involve them in everything as far as possible, to give then some ownership.

Our kids after 3 years of this, love the boat. They want to steer, read the charts (yes I still use paper charts), pull ropes, basicly do everything we do, thats within thier scope and strength.

They are now ready for the RTW next march.

Good hunting.

 

[William_H]

Get a boat in the 20 ft range. Firstly you will feel in control and that the boat is not so big as to be a danger to itself and others. Secondly the kids can see out easily fro the cockpit. And when they grow a little bigger will be able to see out front easily to helm the boat.
You definitely need a boat that is self righting and with self draining cockpit so that if all else fails you can put them all in the cabin for safety.

I was involved with scouts for many years and initially they battled with Mirror dinghys. They often capsized in strong winds (that we always get in the summer) and sailing became unpopular. We bought 2x 20 fters F/G fixed fin keel with sealed cockpit. They then never looked back. We can safely send quite young kids out alone in these boats knowing they can't come to any harm.
In your case once you have a boat you must rapidly develope a sense of the weather. This makes all the difference between enjoyment and suffering. The kids will be ok but mother will really fall apart in bad weather. This will also be the time when you find out if you really are suited to sailing.
My own experience is that I got the 21fter and kept it for 25 years now. My 2 boys started sailing from the beginning. I used to take the 3 yo out (with other helpers) when mother stayed home with the new one. Now they are both excellent sailors and really love it. I did a race last Sunday with 2 boys and me and I thought what a priveledge to be able to spend time with 25 and 27yo sons on an equal footing on a boat. We all take turns at skippering.
good luck and take it easy. It seems to me that many male new boat owners get very cranky when things go wrong through their own failings. They hope the crew (wife) can perform miracles to make it right and so shouting matches begin. Just remember your relationship on the boat will dictate your whole sailing future. Stay clam considerate and polite to wify and children. good luck olewill It is the management of difficulties that makes all the difference to future sailing.

 

[LeonF]

Why don't you consider a large day boat like a Drascombe and day sail only for a while?? You could trail it to different locations, and with a much larger cockpit than any small cruiser the kids would be comfortable, and be able to see out all the time. The nearness of the water makes it fun too. When I worked in a centre some years ago I used to take 8 to 10 kids out on the tidal Thames in a Drascombe and they always had a lot of fun. The plate can be lifted and the boat beached when they get a bit tetchy or need a loo break and don't want to use the bucket...make it all an adventure and they may grow to love it. Some years ago PBO did a feature about a family with four kids who regularly trailered theirs abroad.