Which boat for Blue Water?

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doug748

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As a follow on from the recent discussion on Stix stability factors, and other matters. Here is a choice, for deepwater, to promote discussion:

1) The 16ton Nauticat 441 - RCD Cat: B. (Offshore) STIX 29 (est)

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2) The 3.5ton Elan 310 - RCD Cat: A (Ocean) STIX c33

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.....is the STIX system potty or useful?
 
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Answer: none of the above.

I'd rather go deep-sea in this. I've no idea what its STIX or RCD are (or what those terms mean)
 
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The Nauticat looks too higher freeboard with too much weight aloft and prone helming position aft - whilst most of the time it will be comfortable to be in - I'd rather not in a blow!

The Elan will need sailing - would be good in a race, but the cockpit is rather open for ocean cruising.

The Ruslter looks nice :) - I'd not leave the kite halyard on the front though - it'll tangle in the genoa when furling ...
 
The original Vertue that crossed the Atlantic would not make Cat B, nor would Espero and many other of the earlier ocean voyagers - but that does not prove anything really.

The Nauticat does not make A because of the doors on the side of the wheelhouse.

Hopefully anybody making a choice of an ocean going yacht is intelligent enough to understand what the STIX formula is intended to do and is quite capable of seeing that your two examples are rather different boats and why they get different numbers.

You may, of course say that the number is meaningless if it gives this type of result but you can say that of any composite measure which is trying to arrive at a single number to describe a particular characteristic.

The only thing to be wary of is if some do gooder suggests that a single number or category is used as a basis for determining what you can do with a boat. This has already happened in the categories of coding for commercial operation. So your Nauticat would not be accepted as a charter boat, but not sure private owners of such a boat would agree to having their area of operation limited to, say 12 miles from a safe haven!
 
Absolutely Tranoma, almost anything is suitable for blue water sailing, you just have to treat different designs in a different way. Seamanship is about understanding how to look after the boat, when each boat design needs a different approach.

A decked in open whaler was good enough for shackleton in the Southern ocean.
 
Is it true that 'The Rules' for A cat. Offshore were adjusted to keep the the major French manufacturers in the game ?

When I sailed off in a Corribee some years ago, everything I did to the boat was in the spirit of imagining The Hand of Fate picking the boat up by its keels, hanging it upside down and giving it a good shake.

It is actually very easy to make small boats very secure although French friends said at the time that sailing offshore in my boat under a French flag would be illegal..

Funny old world.
 
The problem is not that stability figures are potty, it's that they do not equate to seaworthyness and were never meant to. It's just one aspect of design. A big raft will have a high STIX no but not constitute a blue water craft at all. Neither indeed does high displacement necessarily make a boat more seaworthy. The Nauticat is a motor sailor with high freeboard, hence the STIX no. Personally I wouldn't consider either to be ideal blue water cruisers....
 
I must agree, for what if anything it might be worth, with much of what has been said. The problems arise when folk believe such figures to the exclusion of common sense. In the last thread there were some examples of posts citing STIX figure like holy writ. When the Nauticat shares the same category as a 5m Rib I think you have to think!
The Nauticat is where it is in the ranking bacause it will let water in when laid on its side. The Elan will float nice and high in the water. Perhaps too little weight is placed on the undesirability of boats being on their side, and the relative possibility of it happening in each case.
 
Blue water boats

Hi Guys

I believe that heavy reliance on numbers is no substitute to sound seamanship, and often find that the person asking the question has so little understanding of blue water or what the performance/coefficients/ratings mean or how they will effect life at sea as to make the question meaningless. Also is the questioner a Captain Calamity or a Dame MacArthur?

I've sailed and lived aboard boats for 6 years, first an Endurance 38, a beautiful clipper bow'd pilot house cruiser and then a Dufour 40 Performance. One more in tune with blue waters and the other a round the cans racer. If you too had sailed them both you, like me, would choose the latter. The heavier trad boats seem to wallow and average 3-4 knots so extending the time in the bad weather whereas a longer waterline length and modern design boat might better than half the time at sea. Even in good weather surely you too would rather average 8 knots than 4.

Another point, usually ignored, I sail when the weather is good, I don't go looking for storms (although I've sailed through 3 of them) so light weather performance is of more value than storm performance. And even more important is the in-harbour or at-anchor luxuries. The boat needs beam, lots of it, and length, lots of it. Blue watering means living aboard and 95% of the time aboard is spent other than sailing. Concentrate on the 95% and stay at shelter when the weather is bad.

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Blueboatman said:
It is actually very easy to make small boats very secure although French friends said at the time that sailing offshore in my boat under a French flag would be illegal..
Click to expand...

Can you explain this for me please? What is your boat? How small (length, displacement or category?) is the threshold at it would be 'illegal' for a French flagged boat to sail offshore? (I assume offshore means something like out of sight of land, 12 miles off land, and/or crossing from Cherbourg to Poole?)
 
Probably the Folkboat and her many derivatives have made more successful ocean bluewater passages than any other single marque, yet they are catagorized as B. Why? Not made in France?

I am told it is because of their length overall. This has always brought up the question as to why the French insist that a Catagory A boat must carry a liferaft on their Ocean Races which by their own definition a liferaft is only catogory B. What I mean is that when a Catagory A boat is in deep trouble, it is Ok to transfer to a Catagory B boat.
 
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Yes i have seen that and the owners group.

I came so close to buying one before i bought that Saga I really wish i had of now.
I sold that Saga for nearly half what i paid for it after owning it for just 8 months!!
I really was fool over that boat.

A friend of mine had a Tayana 37 and i loved that boat. It now belongs to a formite.

I'm seriously thinking about that one in the link. There is also another one in plymouth For £50k but it looks like it has been knocked about inside (not standard layout) and it needs new teak decks so he might do a deal on it??

Rob
 
I would go in mine, if I could. She has been across the atlantic twice and in touch with a previous owner said she survived a large rouge wave. All this talk of blue water sailing though makes me think at least blue water cruisers can wait for a weather window, at least to start. I think cruising around the UK coast can be quite demanding especially if you are short handed. When I went to Ireland we spent 52 hours beating back from Baltimore to Falmouth in to a SE 4 to 6 and at least she was comfortable. The alternative was to wait for it to go around to the NW and increase gale 8 to 10.

Though obviously when out to see you have to face whatever comes your way. A good friend of mine, a hydrgraphic surveyor and keen small boat sailor was always of the belief that you could go anywhere in anything. Then was doing an Atlantic survey in winter and faced a big storm where the survey vessel motored in to the storm at full power and was making only 2 knots. They had four inches of water inside on a deck 25 ft above WL. He changed his mind about when and where to go in small boats. So I guess you payes your money and take your choice.....
 
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