Where have all the small boats gone ?

[Hurleyburly]

Something that's been irking me for a while - why can you not buy a new bilge keel yacht for under £35K ?

Been prompted to write this by the recent posts from people needing a small, affordable family cruiser.

In the early '90's you could have bought a Hunter Horizon 21 NEW for around £12K, why do these types of boats no longer exist new ?

All I can see is manufacturers chasing the big money and neglecting their bread and butter clients, in my mind to their detriment (demise of Westerly ?). Even Moody have dropped their 34 and added a 64 !

I've been looking for a small, manageble bilger for about 3 years now, but they're all silly money (£15K) for (mainly) ancient, poorly maintained junk. If the French can turn out lift-keelers at sensible prices, why can't we make something similar with two pieces of iron stuck to the bottom ?

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[jeanne]

It's been a mystery to me for some time now. When we joined our club nearly 30 years ago, most of the boats for us 20 somethings were in the 18-22ft range; and that's how we learned about sailing...however, it has become apparent that the latest crop of the same age expect to start in a boat of at least 25ft, probably more like 28ft. We are in the Bristol Channel, and with the large tidal range, the drying harbours and the forgiving nature of bilge keelers if you have an accidental grounding through miscalculating tides, they were the ideal starter boats. Now, apart from the size, fin keelers seem to be the norm ( it's the 'performance' you know...)and drying out alongside is fraught....there have been several nose dives recently.

I assume also that builders have to think about volume sales, and the smaller boats just don't appeal anymore to the average first time buyer. Perhaps the amount of disposable income is higher too, certainly those new to sailing seem to be slightly older than we were....DINKIES?

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[bedouin]

It must be supply and demand - the manufacturers clearly don't think they can make enough money out of the smaller boats

Possible reasons:

a) Improved materials and equipment mean that a 32' these days is as easy to handle as a 24' 30 years ago

b) Better Nav (i.e. GPS) means that people are venturing further with less experience - so want a boat that will cross the channel easily (or equivalent offshore sailing)

c) Boats are much cheaper relative to average earnings, so many more poeple can afford a bigger boat

d) People have higher expectations of accommodation, and are using the boats more like caravans, so want larger boats.

e) Lots of good, cheap, smaller boats on the second hand market

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[jamesjermain]

Spot on, Bedouin, couldn't have put it better myself!
I find it quite encouraging, though, that most of the high volume builders are currently offering designs around the 10m mark. My father would have described this as a bloody big boat but I guess we have to consider it small today.



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[vyv_cox]

Very true and not only applicable to boats. Similar observations apply to cars, motor caravans, houses, trucks, furniture, etc., etc. There is more profit to be made from selling a few, high-cost items than many low-cost ones. While there are people about with the means to pay it will continue.

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[Gunfleet]

James I think they are bbb's too. Watching portly men and women over 60 lever themselves over the high topsides of their 30 odd foot AWB is a uniquely modern activity. I expect a lie down in their after cabin and a quick shower in the ensuite soon restores them, though.

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[Guest]

S/hand market killed them off ..

S/hand boats killed off the smaller new boats ....... and forced builders to buy in from Poland etc. Even dear old Frenchy has trouble in the smaller lines and has to 'buy-in'

It's not uncommon also for buyers of smaller boats to comment - why doesn't it have like the old xxxxxxx had - or the other type that cannot understand why a 24ft'r is short on headroom and sails well !!!!

I mourn the demise of small new boats, but then again I buy s/hand ones to satisfy my 'lust' !!!!

A passing thought ........ many new larger boats are handled by some obvious twats !!!! More money than sense. Many small er older boats are quietly doing their thing without bothering others and often with very experienced people on 'em !!!! Just a little observation !!!! Now lets see the flak fly !!!!


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !

 

[Guest]

FYI - certain markets are VAT free at

10m and above ......

Just thought you'd all like to know !



<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !

 

[davidwf]

What about small these british small boats

The parker lift keel range

http://www.parkeryachts.co.uk/parker235.htm

Also the leisure 18 being made by Cory Boatbuilders in Sandwich, http://www.cory-yachts.co.uk/

Or the Pipin not sure where thats made. Or are these too small?


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[charles_reed]

Re: What about small these british small boats

I think that the Parker is excluded on 2 counts.

1. It's not a bilge keeler

2. It costs more than £35K.

But then it sails better than any bilge keeler, by several orders of magnitude and draws a lot less water.

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[davidwf]

Re: What about small these british small boats

Just noticed that Corys no longer make the leisure 18 sorry.

The Parker 235 is around 25K.

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[Aeolus_IV]

As someone who went through this process the other year (ie what size/type of first boat to buy), I would offer our summarised thoughts:

The boat needed to be big enought to cross channel safely in most percievable conditions (the boat is based in Eatsbourne, so for crusing this is half of our options).

The boat needed to be quick enough to cross the channel at a fair pace under either sail or motor. She had to sail well in all conditions.

Accomodation had to be adequate and work for four adults for a couple of weeks if necessary, but be comfotable for the two of us for the rest of the time.

We started looking at boats in the mid 20 foot mark (fin and bilge keel), but ultimately we felt that the compromises that they made didn't match our needs. So we ended up buying a 32', heavy fin keel boat, 30 years old. The only compromise we have made is that our draft is 5'10", so there are many places we cannot easily go. However I do not see this a so much of a problem these days - there remain many good anchorages available, and in recient years marinas have been built when none existed before, and many working harbours now contain facilities for yachts.

Not only have people changed thier expectations for sailing (travelling further, faster and in more comfort), but ther ability to pay for it has changed too. It is then hardly a suprise that the "infrastructure" has changed in step with the change in it users, catering for larger craft that seem more dominant these days.

I think the original environment which encouraged smaller bilge keel yachts is disappearing, and while they still form a significant section of the second-hand market it is no suprise to me that this isn't reflected in the new boat market.

Regards, Jeff.

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[pkb]

Re: Bread and??

I trhink small boats proved to be their bread and water rather than bread and butter. Peter

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[pkb]

Re: Small but not beautiful

But don't you find that the people who sail larger boats tend to be more attractive than small boat sailors - particularly the women on board who are generally less weather beaten, more evenly tanned and so much better dressed - or sometimes undressed.

Flak??

Peter

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[Artemis]

Weather-beaten women

It may be true that women who sail in small boats are more weather beaten but I bet they are all very fit.

Just for the record how quickly can you run?


Artemis


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[Mirelle]

Re: S/hand market killed them off ..

"A passing thought ........ many new larger boats are handled by some obvious twats !!!! More money than sense. Many smaller older boats are quietly doing their thing without bothering others and often with very experienced people on 'em !!!! Just a little observation !!!! Now lets see the flak fly !!!!"

From what I see from my own cockpit, I think you are pretty much right.

Certainly there are exceptions, both ways, but I am very often impressed by the seamanship shown aboard some smallish, elderly boat, perhaps a bit scruffy, either singlehanded or with a crew who are not so young either. Maybe I just notice them, whereas the brain tunes out the endless procession of AWB's because they are not interesting to look at.

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[pkb]

Re: Weather-beaten women

Not sure about the first point and as for the second that's an irrelevant question for the issue under debate and the answer is between me and train I'm trying to catch before it moves off.

Peter

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[graham]

I would guess it is to do with the high cost of labour.The labour cost of producing a 20 foot boat would be not much less than a bigger boat selling for 3x the £s.

Also small grp boats built 20 or 30 years ago are still going strong .They can be neglected for years and restored into commision again where as wooden boats (especially plywood ones)neglected for years become bonfire material.

Another factor I think is the fact that people are willing to go into more debt these days.

Where a person of limited means years ago would buy a bare hull and deck and spend a few years fitting it out as money became available now you just sign on the dotted line sail away on Friday then use your brand new VHF to call the RNLI to get you out of the $h!t on Saturday.

I think the modern breed of yachts people starting out in newish 10 meter plus LOA yachts are missing out on the "seamanship apprenticeship"gained learning in dinghys and small yachts.