ceeagr
New member
What do people think is the relative merits between the 3 continental manufacturers?
Whats the difference between Bav/Jen/Ben?
- Thread starter ceeagr
- Start date
JeremyF
New member
Strewth, there's a flame in the making here!
There's been a fairly passionate debate about the seaworthiness of Bav's yesterday, and the 'heavy long keel brigade' led by Twister Ken led the charge.
I'm sure they will say Ben/Bav/Jen are all the same, and shouldn't be allowed out from the Solent.
Well, for my style of family cruisers, Ben/Bav/Jen are ideal, and fabulously priced, as they have invested in production technology, unlike the vestiges of the British marine industry. No, they might not be the greatest sea-kindly craft, but for the price of a 10 year old Moody or Westerly of similar dimensions, you get a brand new yacht, with brand new kit.
My personal preference is Bav, as I prefer the more traditional lay-out, and the build quality seems better. I dont personally like the caravan-style interiors of Jen and Ben, but hey, its a matter of taste
Jeremy Flynn
www.yacht-goldeneye.co.uk
New pics 11.02.02
There's been a fairly passionate debate about the seaworthiness of Bav's yesterday, and the 'heavy long keel brigade' led by Twister Ken led the charge.
I'm sure they will say Ben/Bav/Jen are all the same, and shouldn't be allowed out from the Solent.
Well, for my style of family cruisers, Ben/Bav/Jen are ideal, and fabulously priced, as they have invested in production technology, unlike the vestiges of the British marine industry. No, they might not be the greatest sea-kindly craft, but for the price of a 10 year old Moody or Westerly of similar dimensions, you get a brand new yacht, with brand new kit.
My personal preference is Bav, as I prefer the more traditional lay-out, and the build quality seems better. I dont personally like the caravan-style interiors of Jen and Ben, but hey, its a matter of taste
Jeremy Flynn
www.yacht-goldeneye.co.uk
New pics 11.02.02
david_e
Active member
Not seen your new piccies yet J, but I can see how you are attracted to the deal you are looking at once the Moody is gone, looks good.
As far as differences go, my research so far (and I'm still looking for more info) is based on looking at Ben/Jens 'cause Bav don't make the kind of boat I want;
Newer Bens glue an inner moulding as part of the main structural strength and this gives the platform to put the inners of the boat on. It also provides the strength and stiffness for the hull and additionally the engine is mounted on it. They feature this production technique in their literature if you want to gain a better understanding of it. As far as the reliability of it goes I have heard that potentially the molding could seperate, that said one boat I am interested in is a First 31.7 which is built this way, there are 16 around the Dublin area who race and have had no problems reported.
Older Bens (pre '98) and Jens are built using the more traditional method.
Despite all the verbal stick they get in these columns, older ben/jens hold their value well even compared to the brit boats so there must be something in that.
Both Ben & Jen manage to produce a huge range of boats in cruising, cruiser/racer and one design format at remarkable prices, some models have quite long waiting lists. What I have found recently is that there are some huge savings to be made by buying in France even allowing for transport.
All three are in a price war which is good for the average consumer.
Can anyone add to the construction comments please I am keen to learn?
As far as differences go, my research so far (and I'm still looking for more info) is based on looking at Ben/Jens 'cause Bav don't make the kind of boat I want;
Newer Bens glue an inner moulding as part of the main structural strength and this gives the platform to put the inners of the boat on. It also provides the strength and stiffness for the hull and additionally the engine is mounted on it. They feature this production technique in their literature if you want to gain a better understanding of it. As far as the reliability of it goes I have heard that potentially the molding could seperate, that said one boat I am interested in is a First 31.7 which is built this way, there are 16 around the Dublin area who race and have had no problems reported.
Older Bens (pre '98) and Jens are built using the more traditional method.
Despite all the verbal stick they get in these columns, older ben/jens hold their value well even compared to the brit boats so there must be something in that.
Both Ben & Jen manage to produce a huge range of boats in cruising, cruiser/racer and one design format at remarkable prices, some models have quite long waiting lists. What I have found recently is that there are some huge savings to be made by buying in France even allowing for transport.
All three are in a price war which is good for the average consumer.
Can anyone add to the construction comments please I am keen to learn?
Twister_Ken
Well-known member
Beneteau and Jeanneau are the same comapny, so quite a lot of models have the same hull with differences on deck and downstairs. Bavaria plough their own furrow, although it does seem to be one which has French influence. If you're seriously looking at this market, don't forget Dufour (which to my mind make slightly better looking boats in their 'classic' range).Then there's Gibsea - kings of ugly. The Germans can also offer Hanse (which are generally a bit less beamy) and Dehler (more racer/cruiser than cruiser/racer perhaps - look at the size of the steering wheels.) Also in the loadsaboat for the money business is Elan.
They all make boats more or less to the same formula - lots of interior space, stability from big beam, rather than heavy ballast, high topsides and hulls that sit on top of rather than in the water. Go well on all points of sail in light to medium airs and go like stink off the wind in a blow. But they are hard to drive upwind in a blow, and need a lot of active helming.
To my mind the best of the Ben/Jen bunch if you've got the crew strength are the Jennie Sunfasts and the Bennie Firsts which are designed with race performance in mind. I've had good fun in a First 31.7, but it's not a boat I'd like to take out through the Needles Channel in a F6.
They all make boats more or less to the same formula - lots of interior space, stability from big beam, rather than heavy ballast, high topsides and hulls that sit on top of rather than in the water. Go well on all points of sail in light to medium airs and go like stink off the wind in a blow. But they are hard to drive upwind in a blow, and need a lot of active helming.
To my mind the best of the Ben/Jen bunch if you've got the crew strength are the Jennie Sunfasts and the Bennie Firsts which are designed with race performance in mind. I've had good fun in a First 31.7, but it's not a boat I'd like to take out through the Needles Channel in a F6.
david_e
Active member
31.7 in a blow?
Why not - please explain? What was your opinion of the boat and does it represent value for money?
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by david_e on Tue Feb 12 08:16:44 2002 (server time).</FONT></P>
Why not - please explain? What was your opinion of the boat and does it represent value for money?
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by david_e on Tue Feb 12 08:16:44 2002 (server time).</FONT></P>
Twister_Ken
Well-known member
Re: 31.7 in a blow?
It's not a problem specific to the 31.7 but to that whole genre of yachts. Caused because the combination of design features has several effects when going upwind in heavy weather. Firstly, the verticalish bow, combined with the flat underwater sections forward, causes the boat to smack and slam as it comes out of one wave and falls onto the next. Each 'slam' takes way off the boat. Secondly, because of the beam which is bought well forward, the boat tries to 'shoulder' the water aside, rather than wedging it apart, which makes it slower to get going once slowed down. Thirdly the high topsides and shallow underwater area mean there's a lot of wind resistance which tries to force the boat away from the wind. Fourthly, the shallow underwater area and (generally) the relatively small keel means that at lower speeds the keel stalls out and the underwater body doesn't help keep a grip on the water, so leeway builds up. Fifthly, the extreme beam means that as the boat heels the underwater shape becomes very asymetric, and in a seaway it changes continually meaning that the helm needs constant attention. Finally, the extreme beam aft means that as the boat heels some of the top of the rudder comes out of the water, reducing its efficiency - which is why really beamy one-offs have twin rudders.
There are some ways to help - weight on the rail, early reefing, changeable headsails rather than roller reefing, and active helming (bearing away over the top of the waves to reduce speed sapping slamming, luffing through gusts to avoid excessive heel rounding you up or sending you skidding off sideways.) It also helps to sail a bit freer and faster, but that's true of most boats!
31.7 is a brilliant racer, fast and responsive, very good power reaching. I think the hull was once the basis of the Figaro race boats. I wouldn't want one as a family cruiser though, partly because of the problems above, if ever caught out short-handed in foul weather, but also because it's pretty soulless below decks - not a yacht that I'd fall in love with, and also short of carrying capacity
It's not a problem specific to the 31.7 but to that whole genre of yachts. Caused because the combination of design features has several effects when going upwind in heavy weather. Firstly, the verticalish bow, combined with the flat underwater sections forward, causes the boat to smack and slam as it comes out of one wave and falls onto the next. Each 'slam' takes way off the boat. Secondly, because of the beam which is bought well forward, the boat tries to 'shoulder' the water aside, rather than wedging it apart, which makes it slower to get going once slowed down. Thirdly the high topsides and shallow underwater area mean there's a lot of wind resistance which tries to force the boat away from the wind. Fourthly, the shallow underwater area and (generally) the relatively small keel means that at lower speeds the keel stalls out and the underwater body doesn't help keep a grip on the water, so leeway builds up. Fifthly, the extreme beam means that as the boat heels the underwater shape becomes very asymetric, and in a seaway it changes continually meaning that the helm needs constant attention. Finally, the extreme beam aft means that as the boat heels some of the top of the rudder comes out of the water, reducing its efficiency - which is why really beamy one-offs have twin rudders.
There are some ways to help - weight on the rail, early reefing, changeable headsails rather than roller reefing, and active helming (bearing away over the top of the waves to reduce speed sapping slamming, luffing through gusts to avoid excessive heel rounding you up or sending you skidding off sideways.) It also helps to sail a bit freer and faster, but that's true of most boats!
31.7 is a brilliant racer, fast and responsive, very good power reaching. I think the hull was once the basis of the Figaro race boats. I wouldn't want one as a family cruiser though, partly because of the problems above, if ever caught out short-handed in foul weather, but also because it's pretty soulless below decks - not a yacht that I'd fall in love with, and also short of carrying capacity
tony_brighton
New member
I've done some Sunfast racing stuff - good boats but not usually geared for a small crew. The fact that Sunsail buy loads must say something about them in terms of price/durability/maintenance.
Declaring an interest here (got a Bav 34); we looked at all three of the class in the same size and chose the Bav based on a range of factors including suitability for our type of sailing (around the Channel), layout and build quality. The production engineering was very sound. The kevlar woven into the forebody is a reassuring feature. And the price was v.competitive.
(ps. yes they go to windward in F7 - lets not get into long keel vs. this type of boat again - its starting to sound like sour grapes from the long keel brigade who've paid twice as much than the rest of us and probably do the same type of sailing)
Declaring an interest here (got a Bav 34); we looked at all three of the class in the same size and chose the Bav based on a range of factors including suitability for our type of sailing (around the Channel), layout and build quality. The production engineering was very sound. The kevlar woven into the forebody is a reassuring feature. And the price was v.competitive.
(ps. yes they go to windward in F7 - lets not get into long keel vs. this type of boat again - its starting to sound like sour grapes from the long keel brigade who've paid twice as much than the rest of us and probably do the same type of sailing)
alant
Active member
Had a few 'probs' with Bav 37 last season. When hard on the wind, even with mainsail reefed, it would gripe up suddenly into wind - nothing helmsman could do - even dumping the main down track did not help.
Performed several 360's without intending to. Not pleasant when close to another boat to windward.
Performed several 360's without intending to. Not pleasant when close to another boat to windward.
davel
Active member
When reefing the main, did you also reduce the genoa size?
I've experienced similar problems (not with BAV) and this helped considerably.
Dave L.
Location: 50 51.0 N 1 18.6 W
I've experienced similar problems (not with BAV) and this helped considerably.
Dave L.
Location: 50 51.0 N 1 18.6 W
kdf
New member
Re: 31.7 in a blow?
Excuse me but my 40.7 is not "fat" at the bow - not all Beneteau's are equal. In fact its very fine up front with the maximum beam well aft. Add to that it has a deep lead keel (2.4m) which doesn't stal easilyl, plus it's light at the ends make this boat scream to windward. I've had it out in very big seas with lots of wind and this is one of the few boats that actually makes headway upwind. Add in the high freeboard and you end up with a very dry boat.
Excuse me but my 40.7 is not "fat" at the bow - not all Beneteau's are equal. In fact its very fine up front with the maximum beam well aft. Add to that it has a deep lead keel (2.4m) which doesn't stal easilyl, plus it's light at the ends make this boat scream to windward. I've had it out in very big seas with lots of wind and this is one of the few boats that actually makes headway upwind. Add in the high freeboard and you end up with a very dry boat.
Twister_Ken
Well-known member
Re: 31.7 in a blow?
Sorry, thought I was quite nice about the Benny Firsts (or the .7s as they seem to be called nowadays) and the Jenny SunFasts which are specced towards performance with deeper keels and bigger rigs when compared with their Oceanis and Sun Oddity sisters.
The 40.7 has a great racing record - a mate picked up some silver in a windy Round the Island in a chartered one. But they are generally seen sailing with a big crew. How do they work as a family cruiser?
Sorry, thought I was quite nice about the Benny Firsts (or the .7s as they seem to be called nowadays) and the Jenny SunFasts which are specced towards performance with deeper keels and bigger rigs when compared with their Oceanis and Sun Oddity sisters.
The 40.7 has a great racing record - a mate picked up some silver in a windy Round the Island in a chartered one. But they are generally seen sailing with a big crew. How do they work as a family cruiser?
Twister_Ken
Well-known member
Author\'s statement
Lest it should be thought that I'm totally opposed to the modern idiom in yacht design, I'm not. Most of the modern boats I've sailed aboard a huge fun when crewed up, and easy to sail in light and moderate winds and off the wind in stronger airs. My main reservation is taking them upwind in a blow. For that reason I don't think they are ideal if you are likely to be caught far from home, with a family crew, in a good blow.
Secondary reservation, many of them are very cavernous below, and quite intimidating to move about in a seaway.
Lest it should be thought that I'm totally opposed to the modern idiom in yacht design, I'm not. Most of the modern boats I've sailed aboard a huge fun when crewed up, and easy to sail in light and moderate winds and off the wind in stronger airs. My main reservation is taking them upwind in a blow. For that reason I don't think they are ideal if you are likely to be caught far from home, with a family crew, in a good blow.
Secondary reservation, many of them are very cavernous below, and quite intimidating to move about in a seaway.
Roberto
Well-known member
Maybe depends on single boat...
single boat characteristics rather than "classes" of boats.
Maybe it is not the heavyish displacement vs lighter hulls that decides if one boat is suitable or not for stronger winds.
I have an old IOR styled boat (light, wide beam, massive freeboard etc you can add all the unseaworthy features) but I managed (well the boat did) to go upwind for almost a day with 45/50kt, almost double digit for the Admiral, and with 90deg tacks, when back in port you think the best sailing ever and you tap your hand on the boat thanking her sooooo much.
It did it with storm trysail as the mainsail had been ripped in pieces and a tiny genoa4, had to touch the rudder only to avoid bigger crests. It was sure not comfortable as the boat heeled so much that the lateral lifelines were constantly underwater.
Well that's the kind of behaviour you would expect from a heavier boat, still my worst ior specimen did it, all by herself.
Mabye lighter boats are not the same as they used to be (mine has 20+year), but I would not be so surprised to find modern boats still capable of heavyish weather going.
That brings back to the initial question, which single boat, maybe a janbav35.258 rather than 35.274 model?
single boat characteristics rather than "classes" of boats.
Maybe it is not the heavyish displacement vs lighter hulls that decides if one boat is suitable or not for stronger winds.
I have an old IOR styled boat (light, wide beam, massive freeboard etc you can add all the unseaworthy features) but I managed (well the boat did) to go upwind for almost a day with 45/50kt, almost double digit for the Admiral, and with 90deg tacks, when back in port you think the best sailing ever and you tap your hand on the boat thanking her sooooo much.
It did it with storm trysail as the mainsail had been ripped in pieces and a tiny genoa4, had to touch the rudder only to avoid bigger crests. It was sure not comfortable as the boat heeled so much that the lateral lifelines were constantly underwater.
Well that's the kind of behaviour you would expect from a heavier boat, still my worst ior specimen did it, all by herself.
Mabye lighter boats are not the same as they used to be (mine has 20+year), but I would not be so surprised to find modern boats still capable of heavyish weather going.
That brings back to the initial question, which single boat, maybe a janbav35.258 rather than 35.274 model?
kdf
New member
Re: 31.7 in a blow?
They're not too bad - no they don't have the same volume but that's always a tradeoff anyway. There are definately a performance cruiser - give them a roller job, lazy jacks, take off all the racing sails and you've got yourself a cruiser that will get you places very quickly. The keel is a little deep for cruising but at least it doesn't depend on it's beam for stability.
They're not too bad - no they don't have the same volume but that's always a tradeoff anyway. There are definately a performance cruiser - give them a roller job, lazy jacks, take off all the racing sails and you've got yourself a cruiser that will get you places very quickly. The keel is a little deep for cruising but at least it doesn't depend on it's beam for stability.
david_e
Active member
Re: 31.7 in a blow?
Thanks Ken for your reply, appreciate the sharing of your wisdom & experience. The people I have contacted in Dublin confirm the need to either get a few rugby players on the rail or to reef the headsail going upwind in a blow. They do say that it will fly downwind without broaching, so this tends to bear out what you say.
Also thanks to the others for your points. Now not sure whether I am more informed or confused?! I might put a post up with my shortlist (when I finally get a berth!) to see what folk think.
PS have just got back from Scarborough on biz. Took a stroll around the harbour - not very exciting at all.
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by david_e on Tue Feb 12 18:32:48 2002 (server time).</FONT></P>
Thanks Ken for your reply, appreciate the sharing of your wisdom & experience. The people I have contacted in Dublin confirm the need to either get a few rugby players on the rail or to reef the headsail going upwind in a blow. They do say that it will fly downwind without broaching, so this tends to bear out what you say.
Also thanks to the others for your points. Now not sure whether I am more informed or confused?! I might put a post up with my shortlist (when I finally get a berth!) to see what folk think.
PS have just got back from Scarborough on biz. Took a stroll around the harbour - not very exciting at all.
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by david_e on Tue Feb 12 18:32:48 2002 (server time).</FONT></P>
Jeremy_W
New member
Very nasty - did you dump the kicker at the same time? Have you checked the rake on your mast? I'll take Bavs off my "must sail" for the moment.
SJP
New member
If the boat self tacks then the probable cause is that the helmsman has stalled the rudder. On a low geared wheel steered yacht this is much more likely than on a tiller steered yacht as there is little feedback as to the amount of rudder currently being applied.
As the boat gets gradually over powered the helmsman corrects by applying progressively more and more rudder. When a big gust then comes along the boat heels and the underwater sections of the body cause it to want to go to windward. The helmsman turns the wheel to its maximum and disaster strikes - the rudder stalls as the angle of attack to the water flow becomes too great.
At this point the yacht is out of control - the rudder is along for the ride - and the
boat may well spin through the wind.
In order to prevent this keep a constant watch on the amount of helm that is necessary to control the boat - marking the wheel may help here. Reef, shape the sails with the backstay adjuster & other controls and let the track over to leeward but always keep the headsail sheeted in tight.
If having done this you are still close to the edge and you are worried about another boat to windward station someone on the mainsheet ready to dump it if you see the other boat heel - your sail has to be dumped before the gust strikes.
Finally if the rudder does stall then you can still catch the boat if you centre the rudder quickly and then reapply it. If it is kept hard over at this point then it is merely acting as a brake.
Hope this helps
Steve P
As the boat gets gradually over powered the helmsman corrects by applying progressively more and more rudder. When a big gust then comes along the boat heels and the underwater sections of the body cause it to want to go to windward. The helmsman turns the wheel to its maximum and disaster strikes - the rudder stalls as the angle of attack to the water flow becomes too great.
At this point the yacht is out of control - the rudder is along for the ride - and the
boat may well spin through the wind.
In order to prevent this keep a constant watch on the amount of helm that is necessary to control the boat - marking the wheel may help here. Reef, shape the sails with the backstay adjuster & other controls and let the track over to leeward but always keep the headsail sheeted in tight.
If having done this you are still close to the edge and you are worried about another boat to windward station someone on the mainsheet ready to dump it if you see the other boat heel - your sail has to be dumped before the gust strikes.
Finally if the rudder does stall then you can still catch the boat if you centre the rudder quickly and then reapply it. If it is kept hard over at this point then it is merely acting as a brake.
Hope this helps
Steve P
alant
Active member
Not thought about rudder stall, but yes kept someone on maintrack dumping duty. Even with 2 reefs in this was in danger of happening. haven't had this under similar conditions with Ben/Jen, even with the Sunfast 32's which have fractional rigs. Are the Bav underwater sections flatter towards stern?
SJP
New member
I'm afraid I'm not an expert on underwater hull forms - even if I have given that impression!
Any modernish yacht design will eventually broach when the turning moment from
the asymmetry of the immersed hull overcomes the rudder.
I think you are actually asking two questions - should the yacht be rounding up at
windspeed X and why when this happens does it then continue right through the wind and tack?
I cannot answer the first one as I haven't sailed either a Bav 37 or a Sunfast 32.
From sailing my own Bav 34 what I can say is that its a big mistake when overpressed to fight a gust by applying full rudder - the subsequent broach nearly always ends on the other tack! (although it has never continued to turn beyond that point).
Its far better to try to handle the gust with the mainsheet and if this fails to at least let the yacht round up with less than full rudder applied - it usually then just stalls the sails and you can bear away onto the original course.
It is my belief that if the yacht broaches under full rudder then some combination of the initial angle of heel, the initial speed of the turn and the rudder stop angle conspire to keep the rudder stalled throughout the subsequent turn.
Any modernish yacht design will eventually broach when the turning moment from
the asymmetry of the immersed hull overcomes the rudder.
I think you are actually asking two questions - should the yacht be rounding up at
windspeed X and why when this happens does it then continue right through the wind and tack?
I cannot answer the first one as I haven't sailed either a Bav 37 or a Sunfast 32.
From sailing my own Bav 34 what I can say is that its a big mistake when overpressed to fight a gust by applying full rudder - the subsequent broach nearly always ends on the other tack! (although it has never continued to turn beyond that point).
Its far better to try to handle the gust with the mainsheet and if this fails to at least let the yacht round up with less than full rudder applied - it usually then just stalls the sails and you can bear away onto the original course.
It is my belief that if the yacht broaches under full rudder then some combination of the initial angle of heel, the initial speed of the turn and the rudder stop angle conspire to keep the rudder stalled throughout the subsequent turn.
MonkeyBusiness
New member
Re: 31.7 in a blow?
I sail a 40.7 with my wife and two kids. (5 and 3). It is corking so long as you shorten sail early. We have been all over the place in it in winds ranging from nothing to 40 knots with associated seas (offshore)
It is very fast, very stable and very responsive. FUN FUN FUN!
I sail a 40.7 with my wife and two kids. (5 and 3). It is corking so long as you shorten sail early. We have been all over the place in it in winds ranging from nothing to 40 knots with associated seas (offshore)
It is very fast, very stable and very responsive. FUN FUN FUN!