What would you do?

[coco]

Having evaluated a whole bunch of Gladiateurs from France to the Netherlands, I settled on a unit based on the french atlantic coast. She looks very clean and well cared for, although a bit meager on the upgrade side and, of course, she is 25 years old already. I had her lifted out of the water before ordering a survey. As far as I could judge with my untrained eyes, this was the best unit I had seen by far.
After allowing for a couple of days ashore to dry, last saturday a survey by a well known surveyor took place. The surveyor had measured the humidity and nothing very bad showed up (Sovereign: between 10 and 24%). No visible osmosis, etc..., but maybe preventive treatment in one or two years.

Before joining the gang in the cockpit, I looked again carefully at the hull outside bottom and noticed a few very slight round bumps and two symetrical (one on each side) square shaped bumps where the shroud attachment plates I suspected were laminated in the hull. Surveyor comes back and looks at the small bumps. Verdict: osmosis.
He then looks at the larger bumps. Astonishment: the hull seems to be delaminated (skin moves inwards).
On Monday we had somebody open one "square bump" and under 2-3 layers of lamination we can see the shroud attachment, that the steel plate is rusty and there is about a 4 mm thick void between the plate and the laminate. It looks like the water in the laminate has corroded the steel and thus delaminated the outer layers of the hull.
Proposed cure: remove the shroud attachment plates competely and relaminate the whole thing using epoxy. This would be done along with the osmosis treatment. Surveyor claims that the boat would be better than new after the repair.
I am little bit concerned: these attachements are probably inducing a lot of stress in the hull skin. And are these the only defects?

Here is my question: would you still buy the boat?

Thanks in advance for any opinion.

PS: might also be a warning for all Gladiateur owners.

 

[Bladerunner]

I wouldn't buy it.

If you have any doubts at all walk away.

 

[snowleopard]

it is a dangerous practice to laminate a stainless chainplate into a hull as it is inevitable that moisture will seep in and the steel will rust under the anaerobic conditions.

i imagine that this will be the same for all boats of this type.

in your situation i would

a) assume that the same applies to all chainplates

b) if you are sure you want to own this type of boat, work out the cost of rectifying the problem and get that knocked off the price

c) when doing the repair, have the new chainplates bolted on one side of the laminate, not enclosed.

d) small amounts of osmosis aren't a big problem but a severe case can be expensive, for more info, ask JDB, he's just had a gelcoat peel and re-laminate job done.

 

[WhatHove]

My Morgan Giles 30 has done exactly the same thing. It's typically a straightforward enough repair job - only metal and grp after all - although I haven't opened mine up for a proper look yet. Anyway, if the boat is cheap it wouldn't put me off. (Mine was!)

If the deck has a balsa core, you might find that this is water-logged in areas too - depending on how water has got into the laminate around the chainplates. Fixing that (if it bothers you...) can be an expensive, difficult and/or time consuming job so it might be worth checking. The 'tap' test is useful here - if areas of deck make different noises, there's a chance you might have a delaminated core caused by water-logging.

I'm not an expert on any of the above myself - just sharing some info picked up along the way.

 

[coco]

Thanks for the feedback so far.

I would like to add that the Gladiateur has a peculiar chainplate arrangement. The steel plates I am referring to are embedded way down the hull, under the water line, and are connected to the deck through adjustable stainless steel rods.
This means that the forces acting on the hull are not only shearing forces (as found in more traditional arrangements) but forces which are, due to the angle of the hull skin at this point, acting perpendicular to the hull, that is, tend to lift the "chainplate" away from the hull.

 

[Guest]

a) Sovereign Meter is a common meter used by many - BUT has serious limitations in depth detection and also when you get voids. This survey has illustrated this very well.
BUT
b) It is difficult to meter around fittings buried or not. Sov. / Protimeter etc. will do all sorts of strange things at times.

I gave up with Sov. and changed to Tramex - which often is too sensitive - but I can say will give max depth detection.

Now onto nitty gritty ...... its a difficult one - as it seems from initial verdict that hull is mod and can survive a few years without treatment - then the chainplate areas give concern and a second verdict is the dreaded O - get it done.

You may be inclined to push vendor to reduce price in compensation part of repairs ?? Then decide what you do ?
You could push them to complete repairs and pay original price ?
You could just offer substantially less and just repair chainplates etc. - leaving hull.

How do YOU feel about the boat ?? That is the real question - I would guess from making the post you are still hankering after THIS boat and need a bit of moral support to buy ....

Honest - think VERY carefully - weigh up costs and price - arrive at compromise with seller to give you best deal. Whatever work you have done - make sure you get a written sign-off by repairers and possibly the surveyor who found the faults etc. Insurance Co. will love that and not penalise you if its in the report etc.

 

[coco]

Yes, I will of course use the problem to negotiate a good price. The question I am asking myself is: can I have confidence that such a repair will bring her back to original strength or better?
And knowing what I know now, it seems futile to look for another unit. The problem will arise sooner or later as well.

As for the boat, yes I like the Holman & Pye designs of this time but it seems quite difficult to find a good sample around 33 feet. The next size up from Wauquiez was the Pretorien at 35 feet. She has a more traditional construction for the chainplates, but it is a lot heavier and needs quite a healthy crew!

JP

 

[aidancoughlan]

I went through a similar exercise with a different type of boat a while back - keel has been grounded heavily... as I got further into it, I found that the rigging has been tuned so much that the sides of the hull were flexing, hull was very wet, deck-hull joints were corroded badly..... stopped looking.

I was very keen on the boat at the time, and got all sorts of wildly varying quotes to fix the work, and varying opinions on how 'bad' it was. Eventually I walked away, and now have a much better boat IMHO.

My strategy would be to work out how much it would take to 'fix' it properly, if you are still happy, deduct the full repair price, plus a significant amount for the inconvenience and the risk that repairs will run over. If it's an old boat, also consider if the value of the boat is worth putting the effort into it.

 

[snowleopard]

[ QUOTE ]
the Gladiateur has a peculiar chainplate arrangement. The steel plates I am referring to are embedded way down the hull, under the water line, and are connected to the deck through adjustable stainless steel rods.
This means that the forces acting on the hull are not only shearing forces (as found in more traditional arrangements) but forces which are, due to the angle of the hull skin at this point, acting perpendicular to the hull, that is, tend to lift the "chainplate" away from the hull.

[/ QUOTE ]

in that case i'd walk away, that's serious structural work and would need a major re-design to rectify.

 

[jonjo]

[ QUOTE ]
Surveyor comes back and looks at the small bumps. Verdict: osmosis.
He then looks at the larger bumps. Astonishment: the hull seems to be delaminated (skin moves inwards).

[/ QUOTE ]
I hope you will pay no more than 50% of his invoice.

 

[cliff]

Roger the surveyor then walk away!
---------

 

[Guest]

It is always difficult to decide if you should accept repair or walk away. From the info you give - it would seem that similar is going to be found elsewhere. Some would say - better the devil you know.

My thoughts are - if price can be pushed down low enough and still stay within reasonable bounds when repairs made - then why not. At least you will know that THAT part of the boat is good. But compromise pricing on structural items is not my idea of a bargain. Compromise usually ends up as paying out more than boats worth.

Careful thought and look at alternative models without such structural arrangements may be advised ??

Its a terrible decision to make and unfortunately no-one can really make it for you. Walking away is only way to safeguard your money..... but then you have to start looking again. Paying for it may not be the end of the bills - as they start cutting into her and finding extent of delamination etc. If moisture has got in - you are looking at possible serious areas of grp work etc. much wider than just around the plates. What about the rods up to deck .... have they caused any damage in deck with the movement of the plates in the weak hull area ????

It is seeming to me that this may expand into quite a sorry story ..... have another search .... before making decision. Maybe offer really silly low price - ie wreck value, one that you know you can still stay in market range after repairs .... seller may already be desperate to get rid knwoing that repairs are extenisve ???

If you don't yru - you never know .... I bought a 23ftr' advertised at £3300 for £1150 one time based on his need to get shot of it !! Spent £1500 ..... had very good boat for 5 yrs. - sold on at £2500 later. It can be done.

Good luck.