What was so great about Gen. Dyer

[julesrules]

To-day is the aniversary of the massacre of Amritsar, when one General Reginald Dyer massacred 400 unarmed men, women and children in cold blood - trapped in a high-walled square, from which there was no escape.

On arrival back in London the general was give a heros welcome!

What was so great about General Dyer??

Jason

 

[snowleopard]

So often the events of history are simplified, often to provide one side or the other with ammunition. Hollywood is particularly noted for it, usually to the detriment of the British/English.

For a comprehensive view of the Amritsar massacre and the context in which it occurred, see here.

Overall, Dyer did not receive the justice he deserved but nor was he made a hero. The account also makes it clear that 'in cold blood' is a long way from the truth.

 

[Sybarite]

I find it hard to support your point of view here; the official government motion which was passed stated :

"He had fired on a peaceful, unarmed crowd without warning. He had continued firing beyond any point necessary to disperse the crowd or ensure the safety of his own men. He had employed excessive measures at the Jallianwalla Bagh and during the period of Martial Law which were every bit as likely to harden resentment and animosity as cow the populace. "

It was one of the shameful episodes in British history.

John

 

[Gunfleet]

Jason,
Welcome. You've made six posts, none about sailing, most with a complaint about Scuttlebut users and how rude to dead popes they are and now this thingy about Amritsar and how wretched the English were. Amritsar must by the way be the point furthest from the sea in India. I don't want to seem less than welcoming, but a nicer introduction might be to tell us abt yr boat and ambitions or whatever. In any case general note which all of us would do well to follow would be 'be charming first and moany later.'
John

 

[snowleopard]

[ QUOTE ]
I find it hard to support your point of view here

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry? What point of view was that?

He was censured and 'invited to resign' but did not receive the punishment that such a brutal action should have attracted, even by the standards of the day. He received popular support through having been seen to have prevented a repetition of the Indian Mutiny (The Black Hole of Calcutta still rankled in the public mind) but to say he was treated as a hero is a distortion of history.

 

[sixpack]

Dwyer, not Dyer, was the villain of Jallianwalla Bagh

See here

The way the tale is generally told in India, General Dyer mercilessly gunned down two thousand Indians gathered peacefully at Jalianwala Bagh in Amritsar. The truth is more complex.
Punjab had been a hotbed of insurgency since 1915. The British Raj enacted the Rowlatt Act in 1918 as a stringent anti-terrorist measure, aborting civil rights.
Mahatma Gandhi called for passive resistance. But, not for the first time, non-violence at the start of the agitation soon gave way to widespread violence. To quote historian Lawrence James, ‘‘each hartal was marked by disorderly processions, looting, arson and attacks on police and Europeans. The trouble worsened after April 10 when Gandhi was arrested and taken to Bombay.’’
From April 10 to 12, there were riots all over Punjab — in Lahore, Kasur, Jalandhar, Multan and Amritsar. Governor Michael O’Dwyer told the Viceroy this could be the start of a second Indian Mutiny, that it must be crushed. Amritsar had exploded with violence after the arrest of its two leading nationalists, Saifuddin Kitchlew and Satya Pal.
A demonstration against their arrest soon turned into a general attack on Europeans. The police were unable to control the situation, and General Dyer was dispatched with troops to pacify the city.
He arrived on April 11 to find Amritsar taken over by rampaging mobs. Over 100 terrified European women and children were holed up in Gobindgarh fort fearing for their safety. In the past 36 hours, the mob had stormed two banks, murdered three European staff members, burned their bodies and looted cash. The bank buildings and two mission schools had been set on fire.
Miss Marcia Sherwood, a mission doctor, had been beaten up by Indian youth. This assault, above all, enraged Dyer. He saw it as a symbolic denigration of British pride. He was determined to reassert British gaur.
The next day he led a flag march through the city and banned all meetings and processions. Dyer was convinced that deterrent punishment must be meted out to the wretched Indians to convince them that the British were not weak, and would strike back as hard as necessary to demonstrate their dominance. Like Narendra Modi 83 years later, he wanted to teach the other community a lesson it would not forget.
So he took out his troops on a short gaurav yatra to Jalianwala Bagh. There they opened fire, leaving 379 dead and 1,500 wounded. On the street where Miss Sherwood had been attacked, he forced all Indians to crawl on their bellies. Dyer believed that Indians had been taught a salutary lesson. He said repeatedly that his aim had been to strike terror into the hearts of Indians and show them their place.
The parallels with Gujarat are obvious. In Gujarat too, violence from one side was met with savage sectarian vengeance, killing innocents to teach the other community a lesson. This was tom-tomed as restoration of the pride and prestige of the ruling community.
Narendra Modi today has a large fan club of admirers. So too did General Dyer. He was obliged to resign. But many Englishmen in India, as well as the British press, defended Dyer as the man who had saved British pride and honour. The Morning Post opened a fund for Dyer, and contributions poured in.
An American woman donated 100 pounds, adding ‘‘I fear for the British women there now that Dyer has been dismissed.’’ The fund raised 26,000 pounds, a colossal sum in those days.
And yet, the bottom line is that, notwithstanding his many fans, the British Raj sacked and disgraced Dyer.

Considering the extreme provocation I am suprised that the death toll was only 379.

 

[jimi]

Yes .. and this geyser does'nt seem to have read the post at all. I simply asked why JPII should be considered great, the thread then went on to have a fascinationg discussion on religion, faith and deity in general .. to which none of the carpers contributed .. alll they could do was shout and posture and launch personal attacks and accusations of bigotry.. not really a great advert for their viewpoint.

 

[Sybarite]

I'm sorry if I misinterptreted your point but it seemed to me that you were apologising for him...

<< So often the events of history are simplified, often to provide one side or the other with ammunition. Hollywood is particularly noted for it, usually to the detriment of the British/English >>

<< The account also makes it clear that 'in cold blood' is a long way from the truth >>

John

 

[snowleopard]

No indeed, quite the reverse. Just pointing out that it wasn't that simple. The English seem to regularly get a load of stick for events which (a) happened long before any of us were born, (b) were in the context of a totally different political climate and (c) have been grossly distorted.

Hollywood excuses it on the grounds of 'making a good story'. A few extremists among our near neighbours use it to justify racism and The PC brigade use it for self-flagellation. I don't know where Jason is coming from on this one.

Personally I think intolerant people should be shot. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[julesrules]

John,

Youv'e got a point! I promise that my next post will be sailing related........................assuming I can get over the nonsense Snowleopard writes!
I guess I have a 'thing' about justice and fair play, even if we have to point the finger at ourselves (particularly if we have to point the finger at ourselves) ..................!The problem is that people like Snowleopard can never accept that we are far less than perfect and have a lot of wrongs to answer for. I am prepared to admit, and apologise for my own and our nations mis-deeds without reservation - and yet when the Queen went to Amritsar in 1997, she refused to apologise for this, one of our greatest acts of cruelty ever!!!
The sooner we can face up to the bloody side of our history and be honest with ourselves and with others, the better it will be for us, for as a world traveller I can tell you we are not liked in far too many places.

By the way, Dyer was well known for regularly reminding everyone that the British NEVER makes war on women and children???????

God Bless & good sailing
Jason

 

[Sybarite]

<< The English seem to regularly get a load of stick for events which (a) happened long before any of us were born, (b) were in the context of a totally different political climate and (c) have been grossly distorted.>>

I agree but by the same token there seems to a sort of implied superiority, in certain quarters, over other nations for what happened before most of them were born.

If people look dispassionately at the facts they can find horrors far worse than Amritsar; it's just a question of how far you go back in history. I just believe people ought to think twice before criticizing other nations.

John

 

[snowleopard]

Dyer died long before I was born so I do not see any reason to 'answer for' his crimes. Yes, I do see them as crimes and I think he got off very lightly but a blanket assumption that all britons then and now are equally guilty is quite unjustified.

As you are determined to assume guilt for any act perpetrated by anyone who happened to be born in the same country, would you care to apologise for Harold Shipman, Fred West, Judge Jeffries, Henry VIII or Richard I ? Sorry, but I'm not about to feel guilty for something I had no part in.

It may be politcally correct to be ashamed of being (select any that apply) British, male, white, Christian or whatever. I am prepared to take responsibility for things I do myself but I will not feel guilt for something done by others over whom I have no control.

Nor will I apologise for researching the background of this issue or pointing out facts which support viewpoints other than your own. I don't suppose either that you will apologise for your insults or for attributing to me views which I neither hold nor expressed. That is your privilege but it does you or your case little credit.

Welcome to the forum.

 

[theguvnor]

Wow !! That told him

 

[cliff]

Do I detect another "lifeboat" situation developing?
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