What to look for when viewing a MAB

[ryanroberts]

Hopefully off to see a couple of boats for liveaboard / cruising next weekend, a Wauquiez Prateorien 35 [Link] and a Sweden Yachts 36 [Link]. Trying to come up with a list of things to ask / check so that I pretend buying a boat is a rational choice and I didn't just like the wine rack. I don't think either have available insurance surveys. I have an experienced sailor coming along with me, but he's mostly sailed open boats and Dutch sailing barges.

Maintenance records, diagrams (maybe even for the electrics if I am lucky). Spare part inventory
Look for rats nest wiring / corrosion / poor crimping etc.
Any 15 year old teak deck is basically on life support right? What are the less obvious signs of having really had it?
I assume any half decent broker is going to be aquavaccing out the bilges and cleaning up oil stains, is there anything useful a GRP newbie can visually check under the floorboards?
One has newish standing rigging the other about 15 years old. I assume it's better to leave checking for rigging/ chainplate issues to survey.

Advice on anything else that my untrained eye might be able to spot, or other questions to ask would be appreciated.

 

[Dukester52]

couple of things spring to mind (although i'm not an expert)...

'under the floorboards'... check the keelbolts look ok (not corroded or sitting in a pool of water)
make sure the bilge under the engine is fairly clean

 

[richardbrennan]

It's a while now since I was looking at boats to purchase, but I seem to recall that you could sense whether a boat had been cherished or neglected almost as soon as stepping on board. My advice would be to definitely go for the former and leave the technical stuff to a good survey.

 

[Elessar]

Hopefully off to see a couple of boats for liveaboard / cruising next weekend, a Wauquiez Prateorien 35 (at 39k) and a Sweden Yachts 36 (at 32k). Trying to come up with a list of things to ask / check so that I pretend buying a boat is a rational choice and I didn't just like the wine rack. I don't think either have available insurance surveys. I have an experienced sailor coming along with me, but he's mostly sailed open boats and Dutch sailing barges.

Maintenance records, diagrams (maybe even for the electrics if I am lucky). Spare part inventory
Look for rats nest wiring / corrosion / poor crimping etc.
Any 15 year old teak deck is basically on life support right? What are the less obvious signs of having really had it?
I assume any half decent broker is going to be aquavaccing out the bilges and cleaning up oil stains, is there anything useful a GRP newbie can visually check under the floorboards?
One has newish standing rigging the other about 15 years old. I assume it's better to leave checking for rigging/ chainplate issues to survey.

Advice on anything else that my untrained eye might be able to spot, or other questions to ask would be appreciated.

As well as dukesters floorboards, look in all the hidden places, lockers cupboards, behind the stove etc. Take a torch and take oodles of photos.
Brokers won’t normally clean bilges and if they do they won’t do it well. They definitely won’t do all the lockers.
Then just follow Richards advice.

 

[RupertW]

The smell first - every else is just rationalising the correct decision your nose made.

If I really liked the boat I would then want to see everything working - do winches and blocks turn, does every light and instrument work, is the owner pulling the old trick of “taking the batteries out of the boat to keep them charged” so you can’t check. Can you inspect the sails? Is there any internal furniture or linings cracked indirectly by an impact or overstraining the hull. I’d get a proper survey done before buying anyway especially for a cheap boat as the survey cost will be much smaller than the time and money you’ll spend fixing a bad one.

 

[Minchsailor]

I assume any half decent broker is going to be aquavaccing out the bilges and cleaning up oil stains, ............

Your assumption is very wide of the mark. In my experience of buying a boat (at a price range £80-100K)a few years ago a broker will do NOTHING to make the boat saleable. I lifted the floorboards of one boat (ashore) and the bilges were almost full of water. Walked away from that one.

 

[lw395]

Once you've made your first impression as to whether it's a wreck or not, just go through it from end to end writing a list of all the jobs needed.
Write a list of every item that needs testing.

Look for signs of dodgy GRP (wicking, crazing, cracking delamination, ....), soggy wood e.g bottoms of bulkheads. Rain leaks.
Blocks that don't turn. Slack in the steering, stiffness in engine controls.
oil leaks around engine. Rust on engine. state of oil on diptsick.
Rust stains on rigging.

worn upholstery, tatty interior. This can eat a lot of time and cash to ever get nice again.
Sails.
What's not included.

You really need to look at fair few boats to get a baseline of what you should expect.
Most boats have faults, a jobs list etc.
Most boats are rarely cleaned to perfection.
One boat I looked at, I was tempted to ask if I could spend a day cleaning it, to see how it scrubbed up. Sometimes it's hard to tell superficial neglect from more substantial problems.
Even if a vendor prepares a boat really well, 3 months ashore in a yard, with random people 'viewing' it, and it will be grubby again.

 

[Elessar]

Once you've made your first impression as to whether it's a wreck or not, just go through it from end to end writing a list of all the jobs needed.
Write a list of every item that needs testing.

Look for signs of dodgy GRP (wicking, crazing, cracking delamination, ....), soggy wood e.g bottoms of bulkheads. Rain leaks.
Blocks that don't turn. Slack in the steering, stiffness in engine controls.
oil leaks around engine. Rust on engine. state of oil on diptsick.
Rust stains on rigging.

worn upholstery, tatty interior. This can eat a lot of time and cash to ever get nice again.
Sails.
What's not included.

You really need to look at fair few boats to get a baseline of what you should expect.
Most boats have faults, a jobs list etc.
Most boats are rarely cleaned to perfection.
One boat I looked at, I was tempted to ask if I could spend a day cleaning it, to see how it scrubbed up. Sometimes it's hard to tell superficial neglect from more substantial problems.
Even if a vendor prepares a boat really well, 3 months ashore in a yard, with random people 'viewing' it, and it will be grubby again.

Fair play. Great advice IMO.

 

[Spyro]

If they have original teak decks on a boat that age walk away. Don’t under estimate the cost of replacing. You could be talking £20k

 

[pvb]

Your assumption is very wide of the mark. In my experience of buying a boat (at a price range £80-100K)a few years ago a broker will do NOTHING to make the boat saleable. I lifted the floorboards of one boat (ashore) and the bilges were almost full of water. Walked away from that one.

My experience too. When I bought my last boat, a Hallberg-Rassy, it had been brought back from Spain by a delivery crew, lifted out, and parked on the hardstanding. It was filthy. Inside, there was broken glass, broken locker doors, blood, etc. Despite that, I bought it (at a big discount to the asking price) and it scrubbed up well.

 

[lw395]

There are a couple of books on surveying yachts, might be worth a read?

 

[pvb]

Hopefully off to see a couple of boats for liveaboard / cruising next weekend, a Wauquiez Prateorien 35 (at 39k) and a Sweden Yachts 36 (at 32k).

Because the forum software is so bad, it's not obvious that you have actually included links to the broker's details of those two boats. It would have been clearer if you'd listed the link addresses separately:-

https://www.whyboats.com/used-boat-...henor-used--fin-keel-fiberglass/id-191224206/
https://www.whyboats.com/used-boat-...-aliki-used--fin-keel-fiberglass/id-19122621/

Both boats look to be in fairly good condition superficially. The engine in the Wauquiez is getting long in the tooth; it might go for years but you can't be sure, and parts for older engines are getting more difficult to source. On the other hand, it doesn't have a teak deck. The Sweden Yacht has a shiny recent engine, but it has those teak decks - and a teak coachroof. The listing says the teak was replaced in 2003 at 19 years old, so you might assume that it'll need doing again in the not-too-distant future.

 

[Biggles Wader]

The Sweden is five years younger and seven grand cheaper with a recent engine. It probably needs re rigging for insurance and then the teak deck----?
Id be looking at how much wriggle room there might be on the price.

 

[V1701]

Because the forum software is so bad, it's not obvious that you have actually included links to the broker's details of those two boats. It would have been clearer if you'd listed the link addresses separately:-

https://www.whyboats.com/used-boat-...henor-used--fin-keel-fiberglass/id-191224206/
https://www.whyboats.com/used-boat-...-aliki-used--fin-keel-fiberglass/id-19122621/

Both boats look to be in fairly good condition superficially. The engine in the Wauquiez is getting long in the tooth; it might go for years but you can't be sure, and parts for older engines are getting more difficult to source. On the other hand, it doesn't have a teak deck. The Sweden Yacht has a shiny recent engine, but it has those teak decks - and a teak coachroof. The listing says the teak was replaced in 2003 at 19 years old, so you might assume that it'll need doing again in the not-too-distant future.

And therein lies the rub! Every boat is a compromise. As someone else said go & see loads of boats to get a flavour but if, as seems to be the case with both of these, some effort has been made to present them well then that's a good start. Especially at this time of year you may hear the old chestnut "end of season condition" which really means they couldn't be arsed decluttering & cleaning it up. I've never really understood why it seems acceptable to present something you're trying to sell for tens of thousands in a cluttered, dirty and poor condition. You wouldn't do it with a car.
I've always found it useful to have a written checklist to take it with you and having someone else as you have is also very useful. If possible ask for the engine to be started & make sure there's plenty of cooling water flowing and look for smoke. Dip the oil & see if it's fresh & see if there's antifreeze in there if you can - surveys don't check the engine so unless you're going to pay for a separate engine survey you need to satisfy yourself that the engine is OK. Check the operation of seacocks as well. If a teak deck is only glued I wouldn't be too concerned but if glued & screwed potentially that could be a minefield.

Above all enjoy the process of buying your boat, there's absolutely no need to rush into anything because there are always plenty for sale and it's a buyers market. Good luck...

 

[pvb]

If a teak deck is only glued I wouldn't be too concerned but if glued & screwed potentially that could be a minefield.

Depends on the deck core, but otherwise there's virtually no difference in replacement cost.

 

[doug748]

It's a while now since I was looking at boats to purchase, but I seem to recall that you could sense whether a boat had been cherished or neglected almost as soon as stepping on board...

It's like wives and girlfriends. In the end all advice is academic; when you see the one you want, you know right away.

Two very good picks let us know how you get along.

 

[V1701]

Depends on the deck core, but otherwise there's virtually no difference in replacement cost.

Understood, I was thinking of a friend's boat that had a glued on teak deck where it was removed & painted over. Some fairing, etc. was required but it wasn't so much that would make an otherwise suitable boat a no-no...

 

[pvb]

Understood, I was thinking of a friend's boat that had a glued on teak deck where it was removed & painted over. Some fairing, etc. was required but it wasn't so much that would make an otherwise suitable boat a no-no...

Sure, it's always an option to just strip off the teak and paint non-slip on, but that costs money too and often results in a loss of resale value.

 

[ryanroberts]

Thanks for the advice so far. Should have highlighted the links originally.

Sure, it's always an option to just strip off the teak and paint non-slip on, but that costs money too and often results in a loss of resale value.

Seems pretty sacrilegious on some boats. There's a Robert Perry in that yard with treadmaster all over it for about 1/3 of what you see Hans Christian 36's usually going for. Have to figure if you want a boat like that then you really like varnishing stuff.

There are a couple of books on surveying yachts, might be worth a read?

Grabbed one for the kindle.

Have been digging round various forums for common problems with those two designs.

There is/was a very well loved Vancouver 32 up on the Orwell, 2019 beta, sails, pretty new navtech, solid fuel stove. Went under offer as soon as I enquired about it.

 

[V1701]

Sure, it's always an option to just strip off the teak and paint non-slip on, but that costs money too and often results in a loss of resale value.

Sorry I don'r really understand why removing a worn out teak deck & painting on non-slip would result in a loss of resale value...