What to look for on older sandwich construction Sadlers

N

NigelCraig

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 Apr 2011
Messages
124
Visit site
I have heard suggestions that the double skinned hull of the Sadlers (would be looking at 26/29) is more prone to osmosis than a single thicker hull. Presumably this would be because the foam in the sandwich would act as a sponge and hold moisture more than solid GRP. Bearing in mind would be looking at boats at least 25 yrs old, is this a common issue and if so what measures have Sadler owners taken to protect aginst this risk?
 
The suggestions are simply that. There is no evidence whatsoever for what you say. Sadler hulls are no more likely to have osmosis than any other make. Mine was kept in fresh water for seven years, a far more likely cause for osmosis than sea water would be, but no sign of it. The foam used is closed cell, no water absorption, and the hull thickness is exactly as it would be if there was no foam. In fact, the majority of the wetted surface, i.e. all the hull between the seats, all the engine bilge, the water tank under the starboard seat, is only single skinned apart from some ribs.

There have been reported cases on the Sadler forum of water between the hull and the foam. This seems to be the result of adding skin fittings without sealing the foam inside. Leaks from the fitting then penetrated.
 
Sadlers after about 1985 were made with more modern resins and should be unlikely to osmose. I've not heard of trouble with the earlier ones either.
 
vyv_cox said:
The suggestions are simply that. There is no evidence whatsoever for what you say. Sadler hulls are no more likely to have osmosis than any other make. Mine was kept in fresh water for seven years, a far more likely cause for osmosis than sea water would be, but no sign of it. The foam used is closed cell, no water absorption, and the hull thickness is exactly as it would be if there was no foam. In fact, the majority of the wetted surface, i.e. all the hull between the seats, all the engine bilge, the water tank under the starboard seat, is only single skinned apart from some ribs.

There have been reported cases on the Sadler forum of water between the hull and the foam. This seems to be the result of adding skin fittings without sealing the foam inside. Leaks from the fitting then penetrated.
Click to expand...

That's re-assuring. It may be what I "heard" was just internet chatter.
 
johnalison said:
Sadlers after about 1985 were made with more modern resins and should be unlikely to osmose. I've not heard of trouble with the earlier ones either.
Click to expand...

I would echo that, but may be worth asking 'Chrissie' on here as she's a surveyor.

I did know a Frigate 27 - ( 26' David Sadler fin keel design but NOT built by Sadlers ) which developed osmosis on the wet carpet pads on the cradle before it even got launched !

Fresh water - rain in this case - is meant to be a lot worse for osmosis I've heard, so the owner of that Frigate gelshielded the bilge inside as well as outside which strikes me as a good idea, -a bit late for that poor boat - though of course the interior structure limits where one can get at.

Modern Isopthalmic ( sp ?! ) resins are obviously a boon, but I fancy belt & braces with Gelshield as well.
 
NigelCraig said:
That's re-assuring. It may be what I "heard" was just internet chatter.
Click to expand...

What you may have heard about is potential delamination of the core from the skins, particularly in the flat bow panels of 29s. Not common, but has been known and is very easy to spot and not difficult to repair.
 
Tranona said:
What you may have heard about is potential delamination of the core from the skins, particularly in the flat bow panels of 29s. Not common, but has been known and is very easy to spot and not difficult to repair.
Click to expand...

Not heard of it on 29s but on one 34 that I know of. That was Dash, belonged to ex editor of YM and YW Andrew Bray. Did two very hard two-handed trans Atlantic races, upwind all the way.
 
Sadler delamination

Hello,I think I might have this problem on my 1983 S26. There are a few places where it feels like the interior moulding has come unstuck from the core. Any advice on how to repair this would be most welcome. Cheers, Chris W.
 
On the example I know of the interior skin was cut out, very easy as it has minimal thickness. It was replaced with strip planking in cedar, which I was told looked superb.

Otherwise I would imagine it to be possible to inject epoxy but it might then be difficult to hide the holes.
 
Sadler
I am the second owner of a 1987 built Baraccuda 45 since 1997 .
Over tas many years as this you get to know about and see places on a yacht that owners who just trade on after say 5 years perhaps do not get to see.
I have not seen any signs of osmosis apart from a small patch under the chain locker and I suspect this is connected with repairs made in this area when she was racing in her first days.
Some delamination has occured and I have repaired as required on the deck to foam core surface.

The closed cell foam appears to work very well and cope with the flexible hull well over the years. I have been caught out in 50kts on the odd occasion.

Yacht is good enough for me to have out up with her defects for all those years and no intention of selling as yet.

Brian

Currently waiting a lift out as went sailing in the harbour and found total lack of thrust when came to use engine in spite of gearbox and shaft turning in ahead and astern. Have checked coupling/shaft pin as well so can only assume :

I have wrapped fishing line around the folding prop ( 3 blade Gori bought in 1997) preventing blades opening
All the Gori blades have snapped off from hub
Shaft has sheared between hull and prop

Did not feel any bumps or vibration before I turned the engine off so i hope its the fishing line and the prop did not have any signs of dezincfication in November when I last checked it.
Its good the weather has been so **** have not felt any loss by not being able to go sailing.
 
vyv_cox said:
Not heard of it on 29s but on one 34 that I know of. That was Dash, belonged to ex editor of YM and YW Andrew Bray. Did two very hard two-handed trans Atlantic races, upwind all the way.
Click to expand...

My observation based on a mate buying one about 15 years ago with the "problem". Seem to recall it was repaired fairly easily from the inside.
 
I looked at an S29. I had a survey carried out, and the surveyor basically told me NO.

He noticed that a couple of minor internal fittings were rust streaked below the screws. IIRC he eased on screw out slightly, and water flowed out. His basic premise was that there was water caught between the foam and the skins.

As he pointed out, this doesn't affect seaworthiness, and as an earlier poster suggested he reckoned it was from on deck rather than a hull problem. However, the only way to fix th eissue is to cut out the inner skin, suck out the water, (possibly cutting throu some of the foam to get to the outer part of the foam) then glassing the patch back in.

Dooable, but time consuming & costly. If you want to get the thing properly dried out you might have to take some time.

So, quoth he, just find something better.

I found something bigger.
 
SmileyGiley said:
I looked at an S29. I had a survey carried out, and the surveyor basically told me NO.

He noticed that a couple of minor internal fittings were rust streaked below the screws. IIRC he eased on screw out slightly, and water flowed out. His basic premise was that there was water caught between the foam and the skins.

As he pointed out, this doesn't affect seaworthiness, and as an earlier poster suggested he reckoned it was from on deck rather than a hull problem. However, the only way to fix th eissue is to cut out the inner skin, suck out the water, (possibly cutting throu some of the foam to get to the outer part of the foam) then glassing the patch back in.

Dooable, but time consuming & costly. If you want to get the thing properly dried out you might have to take some time.

So, quoth he, just find something better.

I found something bigger.
Click to expand...
"couple of minor internal fittings"-could you enlighten us further which fittings? and where abouts they were situated?
some advantages of the foam filling include -quieter, less / nil condensation, added bouyancy in some models
us - no probs over many years and highly delighted with our sadler
 
The fittings were in the cabin, maybe in lockers above just above the seating. His point was, that for there to be water there it had to be quite high up the foam. Of course - there doesn't need to be a lot of water there because there isn't much space between the foam and the skins. But, water there was, & so I ended up looking elsewhere & getting a Countess 33 (with it's own issues to deal with)!

Hold on - magic of hotmail. I still have the survey from several years ago...

Moisture readings outside...
"Topsides - Variable 12 to 30. The higher readings being found amidships to starboard. (In way of the wet foam as noted later on)."

Interior comments
"(b) Saloon. Starboard settee berth. Cave locker plywood face panel. Lower margin - The timber is damp and water stained. The outboard lower corner of the board immediately forward of the chart table also shows signs of water penetration. There are signs of water run stains on the moulding below. There was no sign of leaks at the time of survey however there are prominent water runs from the fastenings securing the forward bracket to the hull liner. These indicate that water has been running out from the void between the liner and the hull. Although there was no water present at the time of survey the plywood remains very damp and it is very likely that there continues to be a leak at this point under certain weather conditions"

Extra comment
"The water runs from the starboard forward saloon cave locker bracket fastenings indicate that water has been present between the hull and liner to this level."

So there WASN'T water present where he saw the internal rust streaks, but the rust streaks suggested water does come out of those screws - which indicate water high up in the foam/inner moulding interface.

Inner moulding comment:
Moisture meter readings (Meter pad applied to the face of the moulding after thorough drying of the surface) - Variable - 15 to 50 as compared to a dry reading of 10 to 12 on an unfoamed section of moulding.
Particularly high readings were found as follows:
(2)Hull liner outboard port - Immediately beneath the berth platform - Pad 20.
Half way down - Pad 20. Prongs in foam 100.
(b) Saloon -
Starboard settee berth back - Pad 35. Prongs in foam 52. (Pad readings of 50 were found in this area).
Port settee berth back - Pad 40.
(c) Quarter berth. -
Beneath circular hatch aft Immediately beneath the foam has been removed to the internal face of the hull moulding. There is water standing against the hull. Prongs in the foam immediately beneath the berth base gave a reading of 100. (There is water lying on the berth base forward of the inspection hatch and water run stains down the liner from gunnel level)."

So I think this was a source of leak into the cabin and also into the foam void.

COMMENT 1 - Mr Surveyor - if you see & recognize this report & wish me to remove the comments I am happy to do so. I hope I have kept all issues anonymous. As with all survey reports - they only echo what the surveyor sees and suspects based on his eyes & experience (this gentleman is very experienced & highly recommended).

COMMENT 2 - I'm in no way on the "oh Sadler unsinkables - eccccch (that's the mechanics pause there)" camp. Those that have em seem very happy with their ships. I simply post this as a single example (and she looked pretty tired example and, well, not loved). I should think she would have scrubbed up well overall though.

Cheers
Sg.
 
Last edited:
Clearly I know nothing about the boat that was surveyed. However, it is the experience of many 34 owners that dampness and even lying water in the cave lockers behind the saloon seats has come through the lower shroud chainplates. I suspect that water from this source could be assumed to be coming out of the bracket supports, whereas actually the water is flowing over them.

I cannot recognise the comments about the quarter berth, as the onlyhatch on mine is a portlight into the cockpit. When I bought my boat the small locker at the forward end of the berth, next to the hanging locker, was half full of water. This turned out to have entered via the ventilator, which was exposed as the hood was taken off.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top