What to do with old yachts

[sail sail]

Great what these guys are trying to do. Too many wrecks around the place. I've just donated.

Help raise £9000 to remove wrecked and abandoned boats from the Helford river and beyond

 

[lustyd]

If they're asking for money then their business model won't work. It's been discussed here many times, a tax on new boats is likely the answer, to make room for those new boats.

 

[Mister E]

It is not a business but a not for profit organisation trying to do something about a local problem.
Maybe volunteering is the only way to sort this out?

 

[KevinV]

Maybe volunteering is the only way to sort this out?

I suspect it is - whenever harbour authorities do this it costs an absolute fortune because of all the blether involved in doing anything practical these days - risk assessments, training requirements, insurance, etc etc - all having to be organised using paid time. A few volunteers with a crane and a trailer can get the job done before any authority has opened a case file.

 

[lustyd]

because of all the blether involved in doing anything practical these days

Not really, it costs a fortune because it's a huge task to move multiple tons of boats about and get them to a recycling facility. Volunteers would still need to overcome that cost, and the recycling facility isn't able to make sufficient profit to pay for the boats since mostly they become aggregate for concrete.

Not for profit organisations don't make profit, but don't make the mistake of thinking nobody is making money. Some of the most lucrative ventures are not for profit!

 

[KevinV]

Not for profit organisations don't make profit, but don't make the mistake of thinking nobody is making money.

In general that is of course true but I can't see that applying to this small band of volunteers trying to tidy their own back yard. Maybe I'm being naive, but I think you're being too cynical here.

Any which way, they have my support - it's a job that needs doing all over the country, they're doing their bit while lots are just talking about how difficult it is, and why someone else should be doing it.

 

[Sandy]

I suspect it is - whenever harbour authorities do this it costs an absolute fortune because of all the blether involved in doing anything practical these days - risk assessments, training requirements, insurance, etc etc - all having to be organised using paid time. A few volunteers with a crane and a trailer can get the job done before any authority has opened a case file.

What happens when one of the volunteers gets killed or seriously injured? How do you deal with the legal eagles circling?

There is a reason for risk assessments, training requirements, insurance, etc etc, usually some eejit cocked up in the past.

 

[KevinV]

What happens when one of the volunteers gets killed or seriously injured? How do you deal with the legal eagles circling?

There is a reason for risk assessments, training requirements, insurance, etc etc, usually some eejit cocked up in the past.

I don't disagree, but it does make every little thing (that we used to just get on and do) complicated and slow.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

I don't disagree, but it does make every little thing (that we used to just get on and do) complicated and slow.

Risk assessments are just that. My firm has been criticised for submitting sheets and sheets when the HSE just wanted a list of actual risks unusual to the job, and what we were doing about them. An A4 sheet not a book was wanted - a simple list plus comment

 

[Motor_Sailor]

And one of the most time consuming (and expensive to a degree), is to prove you legally have to right to dispose of boats. You can't just have gangs of local do-gooders deciding which 'wrecks' are ripe for disposal. There's plenty of 'wrecks' I would like to see crushed in order to improve the look of our harbours and creeks, but most are are still someone's pride and joy.

 

[Mister E]

Some of the ones shown in the article have definitely been abandoned for years some are not even complete.
In some areas this is becoming a real problem and at least some people are trying to do something about it. Congratulations to them.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

And one of the most time consuming (and expensive to a degree), is to prove you legally have to right to dispose of boats. You can't just have gangs of local do-gooders deciding which 'wrecks' are ripe for disposal. There's plenty of 'wrecks' I would like to see crushed in order to improve the look of our harbours and creeks, but most are are still someone's pride and joy.

Councils dispose of all manner of things abandoned by their owner, including new looking cars that fine but are not taxed.
If an object is causing nuisance then it might be removed even if possibly owned

Mostly the abandoned boats are just left by owners not wanting the responsibility of disposal - flytipped by default. One can put notices on them if one has clear title to use of the space they are in - by default the crown owns between high and low water mark, but it might be a harbour authority, rivers trust , or organisation / club renting such space.

The ability of humans to leave rubbish behind has been a great benefit to archeologists, but now we are drowning in it.

 

[Corribee Boy]

Why does it cost £500 per tonne to dispose of GRP to landfill? Is it treated as particularly hazardous? I recently disposed of a load of asbestos for about £200 a tonne, and inert waste would be a lot less.

 

[dancrane]

Making this admirable idea official is the death-knell to its affordability and practicality. As soon as someone young and energetic says "With a dory and a couple of float-bags we can lift that miserable sunken undecaying eyesore out of the mud and quietly deposit it out in twenty fathoms", OldFartsInc point out why it can't be done according to HSE or the letter of the law.

If it isn't discussed, it could be achieved by keeping a low profile. Advertising for sponsorship is very unfortunate, because of all the responsible, laudible, dead-in-the-water observations made above.

Luck, acute judgement and a council that looks the other way for a few days - that's what these people needed, as well as the £9K for whatever they reckon is the bare minimum kit.

My guess is that it won't happen because by looking for funding, it's already waving a flag that says it is planned.
.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

A long ago instruction to french civil servant by their overall boss, (CR), was to be diligent but not too diligent

Plenty of things are done to mutual benefit by careful non observance and ancient custom

Why poo poo a potential useful endeavour?

 

[Mark-1]

Making this admirable idea official is the death-knell to its affordability and practicality. As soon as someone young and energetic says "With a dory and a couple of float-bags we can lift that miserable sunken undecaying eyesore out of the mud and quietly deposit it out in twenty fathoms", OldFartsInc point out why it can't be done according to HSE or the letter of the law.

If it isn't discussed, it could be achieved by keeping a low profile. Advertising for sponsorship is very unfortunate, because of all the responsible, laudible, dead-in-the-water observations made above.

Luck, acute judgement and a council that looks the other way for a few days - that's what these people needed, as well as the £9K for whatever they reckon is the bare minimum kit.

My guess is that it won't happen because by looking for funding, it's already waving a flag that says it is planned.
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Agree. We have a Graffiti problem near my house. After two years we went through the formal process and got permission to paint over it. It took months and a vast number of e-mails to get permission and we had to write a risk assessment, cone it off, wear hi-viz.

Now a couple of locals just pop down there with the grey paint every now and then. Nobody has ever complained that it's happening.

Ditto scrap boats. Nobody is going to complain about someone removing derelict plastic boats. As long as you don't ask permission it will be fine. As soon as permission is requested it will become too difficult and nobody will bother.

 

[dancrane]

So much can go unsaid and be achieved if you don't have to account for unfitness and rank daftness (including bold but imprudent misjudged attempts by folk with physical disadvantages, whatever those be. I can't lift my arm properly at the moment, so I'd exclude myself from 'fit and able').

Health and safety rules are levelled to protect the amazingly ignorant, the unfit, the poorly-sighted and the grossly inept (or rather, to protect companies, landowners and authorities from legal woes following the misadventures of the too old/too unfit/too distracted/too damned stupid).

Bright people who can judge the demands of a situation, can usually go ahead and deal with it, if they can accurately gauge themselves able.

But in this ludicrous age, health-and-safety assumes rank incompetence and unfitness about all who may encounter any situation...which makes getting started, infernally complicated and costly. It needn't be thus.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

So much can go unsaid and be achieved if you don't have to account for unfitness and rank daftness (including bold but imprudent misjudged attempts by folk with physical disadvantages, whatever those be. I can't lift my arm properly at the moment, so I'd exclude myself from 'fit and able').

Health and safety rules are levelled to protect the amazingly ignorant, the unfit, the poorly-sighted and the grossly inept (or rather, to protect companies, landowners and authorities from legal woes following the misadventures of the too old/too unfit/too distracted/too damned stupid).

Bright people who can judge the demands of a situation, can usually go ahead and deal with it, if they can accurately gauge themselves able.

But in this ludicrous age, health-and-safety assumes rank incompetence and unfitness about all who may encounter any situation...which makes getting started, infernally complicated and costly. It needn't be thus.

If its unofficial you dont have to risk assess your self

Not that risk assessment is difficult anyway. Risk of boat toppling, risk of lifting stops failing, risk of crane jib hitting someone, risk of trailer backing over someone etc. Preventative actions - keep people clear and have someone making sure they are clear. Plus make sure everyone knows where a@e is and how to call 999 if fuel or other hazardous chemicals found unexpectedly. And so on - there must be numerous templates if it seems faff to generate ones own

Risk assessment needs to be held and breifed by an organisation, and may not be needed by anyone else

 

[RunAgroundHard]

In today's news paper, members have been reported to have micro plastics in them, also sperm. The reason they know is the rise in erectile disfunction corrective surgery and the subsequent tissue analysis. Microplastics are known to be in our blood and lodged in many other organs. I don't want a blind eye turned to the removal and dumping at sea of old GRP boats, or other plastics. I would like to think that responsible disposal can be planned into end of life and the current mess of GRP wrecks in some areas cleaned up to minimise waste transfer to the environment. It is not acceptable to be dumping at sea because our councils or boat owners can't be bothered. We are polluting our planet and it has got into the very fabric of our life.

Microplastic discovery in penises raises erectile dysfunction questions

 

[dancrane]

I would like to think that responsible disposal can be planned into end of life...

Wow, so would I. How are we doing, on that score?

I'll applaud responsible disposal on the scale necessary, as soon as it starts being genuinely possible. I'd certainly back increased prices for new boats to help cover the cost of making it possible.

But at present I don't detect any political inclination to make it happen. Incapable or irresponsible owners of barely-floating trash-heaps will let them accumulate for the foreseeable future, because who'll prevent it?

I don't like the idea of scuttling or dumping at sea, I was only pointing out that a small group of halfway intelligent, able-bodied, reasonably equipped adults definitely could clear a muddy river of its glassfibre hulks without needing HSE approval.

Plus, what's the difference in measurable ecological harm, between an ugly old wreck left to be visible for decades on a half-tide mooring in an otherwise lovely river, and the same boat sunk on a plain seabed offshore, where it will quickly attract colonising sealife?
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