What should I expect from an engine refurbishment?

[Chrissie]

Over the last six months I have had my little Vire 12 engine reconditioned, I went to a 'Vire Specialist' who told me that he could strip it down and get it all running again and it would be perfectly usable.
Being wary of engines and more importantly the tide at the entrance to Portsmouth Harbour, I wanted all the parts that needed to be replaced, replaced, and the engine all assembled back in my boat and in working order for the launch.
Due to perfectly understandable reasons the original quote was soon far exceeded, and £1600 later I launched.
The exhaust silencer cum water trap I had bought under advice from the engineer, hadnt been fitted, he told me I didnt really need it after all and could do it myself with an anglegrinder to cut through the exhaust hosing, and the petrol tank hadnt been refitted but I was able to buy a plastic tank which works and I can fill up the filler hole in the deck with something else.
The big problem though, is that when I went to start her for my first day out, she wouldnt start, hours later, with new spark plugs, because the 'water' in the cylinder was stopping them firing, and a jump start to the starter motor, she started, but there was petrol leaking out, the petrol pipes had no jubilee clips, and petrol was coming out of the top of the carb.
I asked the engineer to come out and look at it and his initial reaction was that he wasnt going to be held responsible if it breaks down, and I had to point out that it hadnt broken down so much as not been commisioned into use.
After a couple of weeks he came out on Thursday, and fitted a new carb., cylinder gaskets etc. and did a few more adjustments, for which he charged more than £300, it no longer leaks petrol and starts well,
But the engineer has sent me a disclaimer telling me I should fit a water trap or one way water valve to the exhaust asap, and should be careful about revs in reverse as the stern going into the back of the engine (flange) isnt very secure, and a bit off centre, though it might last for years....
So my question is, should I have had to pay the extra money to get the engine working after I had already paid for a total engine refurbishment, should he be giving disclaimers on the stern that he conected, (the gland end that I did, is fine) and after coming into and out of Portsmouth under power, twice now, whats the strange new loud 'rattle' thats coming from the engine, and have I had good service? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[Lakesailor]

A large bill

and no, you've had crap service. Bit late now but the money would have gone towards a better engine.

 

[tillergirl]

First things first: you need a watertrap. Without it cooling water in the exhaust system when you stop the engine just lies in the exhaust pipe and can, by motion of the boat, work its way back to the engine, into the exhaust manifold and thus inside the engine. It should be a DIY job. I don't understand what is meant by an off centre flange but certainly the advice about going astern is sensible since if your exhaust outlet is close to the water line, you can easily drive water from outside back up the exhaust.

Whether you should have paid extra rather depends on the contract/agreement you had with the engineer at the start of this. Did the engineer work on the engine in situ, did he remove it back to his workshop or did you deliver it to him? It isn't clear to me whether he was supposed to commission the engine or merely return it to you to install. I guess from what you say the former but either way I would certainly expect carb problems to have been resolved and would not be paying extra. Any faults with the carb should have been clear on bench testing.

 

[Chrissie]

I went and bought a water trap silencer, when I asked the engineer why he hadnt fitted it he said it was a hard and messy job and I didnt really need it anyway, I asked him if he would fit it anyway as I had bought it and it was just going to waste, he said that he didnt have time and wasnt neccessary( I was paying an hourly rate as well as travel expenses etc.) and I could do it myself, if I wanted.The boat is 38 years old and has never had one before, but I do want to take it to a higher spec. It was upsetting that after he advised that it wasnt needed, and after launch, he sends a disclaimer telling me that he told me I should have it done!
His point about keeping revs down in reverse was that where the stern enters the back of the engine, he had put grub screws in place to hold it tight and he says that this hadnt worked and its loose now.
The engineer did some work insitu but took it all back to his house then fitted it back into the boat, he sent me a video clip of it working on his garage floor, but thats not quite the same as working under load in the water.
I am about to buy a fully reconditioned engine for my morris minor, for £675, and have had a quote to completely refurbish my own engine which would only come to £1450, so over £2000 for the Vire seems a bit excessive, the original quote to refurbish the Vire was for £600 to £800.

 

[oldharry]

Marine engines and fitting them are always more expensive than car engines. Your Morris minor sounds a bit of bargain at £675. Boat engine parts are notoriously expensive (even head gaskets can go well into three figures) particularly if its Volvo. I was once quoted over £500 for parts for a Volvo which on my car would have cost around £125.

Secondly - its a boat! Even mass produced ones can be very problematical, unlike your Morris where as long as you have been sold the right bits - they fit.

But yes, i think you have been ripped off by a cowboy. If you want to pursue it, get a qualified Surveyor to report on the installation, and advise both on what needs to be done to put it right, and the best way forward. Disclaimers just because he has not bothered to do the job properly is just not acceptable.

Would you accept disclaimers on your car after its been repaired? "The wheel nuts were damaged, and we had no spares so we used clips to put the wheels back on. Dont drive too fast because they are already coming loose, and we will not be responsible for any accident if they come off"

Thats effectively what your guy is saying. Incredible!

 

[capt_courageous]

Sounds like rubbish service and really bad luck. As Lakesailor says the money could have been better used. We thought of a recon. for our old Volvo but the cost of parts/labour were horrendous and we would still have as an 'old' engine. A visit to your local Trading Standards Officer might get you somewhere if the guy is in business as an engineer.

 

[wotayottie]

I'm trying to think of a positive angle to put on this reply but its really difficult. Its a bit like my wife's (famous in the family) road directions to someone which went along the lines of "well if you want to get to X you shouldnt really be staring from here"

You best long term answer is to mentally write off the money as a lesson learned, rip out that obsoltete piece of junk, sell it to another sailor who is sentimental about old kit, and replace with a decent modern diesel.

If you're not willing to do that, then you need to rectify what has been done so far and certainly to install the water trap. It sound to me as if the "engineer" thinks water is coming back into the engine, though why it should suddenly start doing this I do not know.

An engine re-build doesnt usually include all the ancilliary kit any more than an engine re-build in your Moggie (you really do love lost causes dont you?) includes the usually rotten sills, engine mounts etc. Depends on what you agreed with him. Sounds as if this might have included installation of the water trap in which case he should do it.

Be wary of people who tyell you to get a lawyer / surveyor. That can and often does lead to further fruitless expense.

Sorry I cant be more positive /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

P.S. I ought to add that I've been taken to the cleaners too - last time with a big marine chandler where even trading standards agreed he was acting illegally but did nothing about it when he defied them!

 

[alan006]

THis might not be as sinister as it first appears. The engineer has done various work on your engine and it is fitted. He may have thought that as the exhaust has never had a water trap silencer and worked ok for many years then leave well alone. HOwever when he found there is evidence of cooling water feeding back into the engine ( which is a very serious problem and needs to be sorted urgently) he needed to protect himself by putting in this disclaimer.
I'm not saying I would be happy with his work but if I understand this correctly everything is ok apart from this aspect. Perhaps he will help remedy this at a modest price as a goodwill guesture. He is barmy if he makes no effort to help you as the marine trade is such a small world he cannot afford bad publicity.
I hope you are able to get everything sorted out. If he is a member of the BMF they offer a good arbitration service and he won't want to look unhelpfull with them.

 

[Channel Ribs]

If I had paid by credit card I would be thinking about getting the money back, it is experiences like this that do so much damage to the industry.

/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[landaftaf]

if his work is so shoddy - and you want reimbursing ...... why not claim through the small claim courts /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[Lakesailor]

'Vire Specialist' [ QUOTE ]
took it all back to his house then fitted it back into the boat, he sent me a video clip of it working on his garage floor

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa. That makes me nervous. I don't have any knowledge of the engines, except that they are very old technology, and perhaps an engineer with a shiny workshop who is VAT registered etc may not be interested, but this all sounds a bit "back pocket" to me.

Pursuing for corrective work or expecting reparation may not be practical so I'd follow Wotayottie's advice and flog it on eBay (lovingly restored classic boat engine etc) and go shopping for a diesel.

 

[Talulah]

Just to give people a bit more insight to the shoddy job done:
I have been onboard and with the engine running there would be a drip of petrol every 5 seconds coming off the carb heading for the bilge. I told Chrissie not to light the cooker!
Just that one thing alone would make me furious as it is so dangerous to have petrol in the bilge. The guy sells himself a being a 'Vire' specialist. I think he has been using Chrissies engine as a learning experience.
(This guy is not an official Vire agent and this is not a reflection on Vire engines. It is purely about the standard of service provided by this so called engineer.)

 

[Lakesailor]

Seems like we came to the same conclusion.

 

[Chrissie]

Certainly lots of food for thought, The new rattle that appeared after he last looked at it is the bit that worries me now, I dont think I have the confidence in him to get him back to have another look,
Being told that I have put too much oil in it when in fact he put the oil in and I havent touched it, and told that my petrol tank is higher than the engine which gives it too much pressure, more than when it was running on the garage floor, just upset and infuriate me.
Thank you all for your comments,

 

[Lakesailor]

Quite. I have theory when dealing with tradesmen.
If they don't seem able get it right from the start, the chances of them redoing it properly diminish with every attempt.

 

[Channel Ribs]

If you need to get your engine up and running ASAP and want a second opinion, I have been working closely with a chap in Hayling who might be able to pop over and take a look for you?

 

[tillergirl]

I think you are certainly entitled to complain about this. If he removed the engine, he should re-commission it or if not willing to explain that to you before he removed it. As a result of his work you have at least four problems; the knock/rattle, the carb leak, the 'stern' connection and the waterlock. If the rattle is internal, that strikes me as v serious - you have no tappets to rattle on a Vire so what could it be? Big End, piston ring. But is it something external rattling. He sounds like a sufficiently careless engineer to have left something loose. Carbs that are in good fettle don't leak. Ones with bent needles, dirt, poor gaskets do. The stern connection is hard to follow. Grub screws? Can't work out where they would go but if the exhaust pipe to engine connection is loose you will get carbon monoxide etc and water in the boat irrespectie of whether the boat is going in reverse or forward. Or neutral for that matter. See the comments on this site re an anti-syphone (waterlock) and see the accessory page showing a Vetus waterlock. http://83.217.109.86/vire/userprob.asp
or http://www.vire6.info/

 

[BenchHead]

"petrol was leaking out. The petrol pipes had no jubiliee clips" - Holy S**t. Depending on what you commissioned this guy to do I would have that down as gross negligence. Did you have in writing a statement of works - was he responsible for refitting the engine or not? If he was I would get legal advice and consider taking him to court having first found out if he is worth taking to court.
Did you check this guy out before commissioning him to do the refurb? From his actions he sounds like a complete rodeo case. Believe it or not there are really good marine engineers about who don't assume because you own a boat you have 6 figure salary to match, who are conscientious, who advise on safety issues when they become aware of them if they spot them before you and generally don't take you to the cleaners.
There is an old business adage - "first loss is best loss" /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif - write this off as down to experience but take legal advice. Don't have anything else to do with this joker and ask fellow boaters for recommendations on local marine engineers.

 

[oldharry]

<<Be wary of people who tyell you to get a lawyer / surveyor. That can and often does lead to further fruitless expense.>>

Well I did say 'If you want to pursue it'. An 'independent expert' opinion carries far more weight than just saying 'I dont think its been done right' Even within the posted responses there is widely varying opinion as to whether the 'engineer' is really at fault. If Chrissie wants to risk the possible cost of recovering some or all of the money spent, then the strongest possible case needs to be put up.

Otherwise, as most of us would, just walk away from it, and get someone else to put things to rights if you cant do it yourself.

 

[tillergirl]

See comments here re removal/fixing of exhaust http://www.vire6.info/How_To/how_to.html