What is a Proa? And, The reason we switched from Oceanic Lateens to Junk Rigs...

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rael dobkins

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Traditional Oceanic Lateens are great for Proas. Nothing shunts better!!!
The problems are land locked waters, with lee shores and variable winds...

Modern Junk Rigs, solve these problems, but they aren't designed for shunting....
Well, that we solved.... Meet the "LaSHuNK", the first true Shunting Junk, from Balkan Shipyards

 
If you are really interested in building multihulls maybe you should consider yachts that people actually (build, buy and) sail.

They can be sold as 'simple' plans or you can buy routed 8' x 4' sheets all delivered in a 20' container and simply tape and glue it together. its not clear, at all, if this one was a home build or built by a boatbuilder. The access from bridge deck to the hulls can be for lithe owners but if you like performance they are difficult to beat (I've sailed on a Waterline 1160) - and make a real change from Lagoons and Bavs.

2000 Schionning 1160 Waterline

Jonathan
 
rael dobkins said:
Thanks Jonathan, nice boat, I agree.
But I like simple things, comfort is over rated... complex systems need maintenance, otherwise they fail....
I like spartan boats...
Keep Shunting mate
Balkan Shipyards
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Because they are custom made you can make them as luxurious or spartan as you like. They are intended for oceans rather than weekends and sleep a total of 6. You can build in 1 or 3 heads. You can buy their furniture package, all white or use hard woods. The mast and deck are whatever you want. You can have diesel inboards or lifting outboards. But they are designed for speed and most owners minimise the comforts. They don't suit those who are not supple the clearance when you go down into the hull is limited and its a bit of a limbo dance to get up and down - that's the real sacrifice that has been made and is the deal breaker for some.

We have the space to build one but I decided I'd rather sail and had a 11.5m Grainger design built for us (semi production) (with African ash highlights, doors and saloon table, 2 heads and diesel inboards). A bit slower than a Schionning but we could average 10kn with full cruising weight and just the 2 of us.

When owners reach the stage of being able to afford the time to address oceans they also feel the need for a bit of comfort - its the 21st century and the granddaughters demand 2 hot showers a day as part of their birthright (and we have 5 of them)

Jonathan
 
Thanks for detailed reply...

It's all true, especially the end when you described comfort... We all need comfort, Proas of all boats offer the least!
I love Proas because of their strength mainly, that's what makes them seaworty, they are simple and cheap to build, that appeals to me too.

My new cruising Proa at 24 foot long, the single Vaka offers zero comfort! 2 bunks, take up the whole hull, headroom is only 1.2 meters, it's truly a catastrophe down below....

But shunting itself is not for all... it's hard work, it's risky too. I suppose to a point this is what attracts me. I've always been the Black sheep... Always swam upstream, don't know why. I do enjoy my adrenaline I suppose... I like extreme sports and work as a roofer.

Owning a comfortable boat is surely out of my reach, the cost of sailing has gone through the roof... So, I decided to see how fast could one sail on nothing? 'Crystal Clear' is built with good quality Poplar Ply, exterior grade, laminated with Phenol Formaldehyde, the whole boat cost under 5000 Euro in materials, rigged and ready to go. Good quality Epoxy locally made was used, some SS fastenings were used in critical places, the rest are galvanized, the sail is made of a sheet of Polytarp, meaning it cost about 100 Euro, a friend stitched it up for free to my design.

You see Jonathan, I bought an amazing 22 foot Mono on "ebay" for 1800 Euro, in 2009 and sailed it from England to Bulgaria... 3 years later I sold it and began building Proas, my last one "Crystal Clear", is my fourth one. It's been a long road of trial and error, developing my Shunting Junk Rig, and my lifting rudders, hull shapes also went from modern plumb bows and little rocker, to traditional raked stems and lots of rocker...

It's a challenge! We can cruise at about 7-8 Knots, at times we go over 10, for nothing... Now lets see how far we can go???
In the future, if we manage to prove anything to anyone, maybe I will design a 30 foot Shunter, build it, test it and sell designs... Maybe...

All the best Jonathan
 
rael dobkins said:
Thanks for detailed reply...

It's all true, especially the end when you described comfort... We all need comfort, Proas of all boats offer the least!
I love Proas because of their strength mainly, that's what makes them seaworty, they are simple and cheap to build, that appeals to me too.

My new cruising Proa at 24 foot long, the single Vaka offers zero comfort! 2 bunks, take up the whole hull, headroom is only 1.2 meters, it's truly a catastrophe down below....

But shunting itself is not for all... it's hard work, it's risky too. I suppose to a point this is what attracts me. I've always been the Black sheep... Always swam upstream, don't know why. I do enjoy my adrenaline I suppose... I like extreme sports and work as a roofer.

Owning a comfortable boat is surely out of my reach, the cost of sailing has gone through the roof... So, I decided to see how fast could one sail on nothing? 'Crystal Clear' is built with good quality Poplar Ply, exterior grade, laminated with Phenol Formaldehyde, the whole boat cost under 5000 Euro in materials, rigged and ready to go. Good quality Epoxy locally made was used, some SS fastenings were used in critical places, the rest are galvanized, the sail is made of a sheet of Polytarp, meaning it cost about 100 Euro, a friend stitched it up for free to my design.

You see Jonathan, I bought an amazing 22 foot Mono on "ebay" for 1800 Euro, in 2009 and sailed it from England to Bulgaria... 3 years later I sold it and began building Proas, my last one "Crystal Clear", is my fourth one. It's been a long road of trial and error, developing my Shunting Junk Rig, and my lifting rudders, hull shapes also went from modern plumb bows and little rocker, to traditional raked stems and lots of rocker...

It's a challenge! We can cruise at about 7-8 Knots, at times we go over 10, for nothing... Now lets see how far we can go???
In the future, if we manage to prove anything to anyone, maybe I will design a 30 foot Shunter, build it, test it and sell designs... Maybe...

All the best Jonathan
Click to expand...
There is no 'one size' fits all - we are all very, very different.

Many who sail, most?, don't have time to build, don't have the skills but (in no order) have a mortgage, wife, kids and a career. Some are comfortable, the kids have flown the nest (or they hope so) and they buy a bigger, newer version of what they started with.

The majority here sail a yacht with one hull, they have never sailed on anything else (though some might have tried a Hobie). Cats are not main stream, tris, even less so and proas.....? and we might have mentioned foils but they are not mainstream - at all.

But like you we have mavericks who introduce us to new ideas, maritime De Bonos - keep offering ideas and you may attract converts. Grith, see current thread, is making valiant efforts to (re)introduce trailer sailers, Chiara's Slave is offering background on tris and I, very boring, stick to ground tackle - you are not alone.


I keep saying this.....

some things never change

A picture is worth a thousand words (though I could not think of one appropriate to this thread) think of the 'word value' of 3 pictures :) ....... maybe you have one or 10?

Jonathan
 
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How do you get on shunting in a gale? It's hard enough tacking or putting a reef in on a conventional boat. Having to pick up the bottom of the mast and move it seems not an operation you can do in anything other than good conditions? and not a design that will scale up really or it will just be too big and heavy to pick up.

But enjoy your unusual form of sailing. If you enjoy it that is all that matters, but I can't see many wanting that sort of boat.
 
Neeves said:
There is no 'one size' fits all - we are all very, very different.

Many who sail, most?, don't have time to build, don't have the skills but (in no order) have a mortgage, wife, kids and a career. Some are comfortable, the kids have flown the nest (or they hope so) and they buy a bigger, newer version of what they started with.

The majority here sail a yacht with one hull, they have never sailed on anything else (though some might have tried a Hobie). Cats are not main stream, tris, even less so and proas.....? and we might have mentioned foils but they are not mainstream - at all.

But like you we have mavericks who introduce us to new ideas, maritime De Bonos - keep offering ideas and you may attract converts. Grith, see current thread, is making valiant efforts to (re)introduce trailer sailers, Chiara's Slave is offering background on tris and I, very boring, stick to ground tackle - you are not alone.


I keep saying this.....

some things never change

A picture is worth a thousand words (though I could not think of one appropriate to this thread) think of the 'word value' of 3 pictures :) ....... maybe you have one or 10?

Jonathan
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Tough assignment Jonathan, showing value in a photo.... let me get into it, interesting.....
Yet you are right, Monos, Cats, Tris and Proas.... That can't be changed, but maybe we can shed some light on the father of multies that discovered the Pacific...

By the way, before I became a Proa maniac, I was a cat freak...
I guess it takes 1000 shunts to become a shunter, it's a frightening business in close quarters, near other boats and hazards at first. Then as you become more experienced, once you know your boat, shunting becomes an achievement you come to enjoy

Keep tacking mate, I will keep shunting...
will look for some thousand word photos for ya
 
Chiara’s slave said:
I could perhaps unbolt an ama and join the proa club.
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Ha Ha, Welcome aboard Tri Sailor!!!

The first yacht I went extensive cruising on as a boy was a 40 foot French tri, I was already sailing dinghies, but I will never forget her, I was about 11 years old, she was huge and fast. I got hooked for life...
20 years will go by, till I finally just bought a 22 foot mono which I finally owned, and could sail as I wished, we sailed her from England to Bulgaria. sold her and went back to multies, lack of resources got me building Proas, it took four Proa builds and 13 years to get it right...

By the way, when people ask me what's a Proa? I answer a Tri without one.....

Keep Tacking brah
we keep shunting!

Balkan Shipyards
 
ProDave said:
How do you get on shunting in a gale? It's hard enough tacking or putting a reef in on a conventional boat. Having to pick up the bottom of the mast and move it seems not an operation you can do in anything other than good conditions? and not a design that will scale up really or it will just be too big and heavy to pick up.

But enjoy your unusual form of sailing. If you enjoy it that is all that matters, but I can't see many wanting that sort of boat.
Click to expand...
I don't pick up anything, I just pull on my endless line which turns my mast, as the 'A' frame mast rotates, the sail goes from bow to stern, in F6 conditions in the Black Sea the waves are very aggressive, these are walls! no body goes out, I get caught out in these conditions and I shunt no problem, the wind does most of the work for you. I can shunt even sitting down on my new Proa, so it's all good.

Shunters discovered the Pacific, these are seaworthy craft if properly designed. We are the Black Sheep in the herd, that's why we are Shunters. We will deal with the hassle of shunting, we're ok with spartan accommodation, zero luxury, but our boats are cheap, fast and very strong!

Proas are tension boats, zero compression! No other multi can boast such qualities, the whole vessel is hanging off a single shroud that's lifting a far away Ama, as rig presses down on Vaka, the akas can be made of pencils, since they are never compressed, all they do is keep Ama away from Vaka. That's a Proa, it's a Multihull that thinks it's a Monohull, that's why it's a Shunter, because it presents only one side to weather, the Ama.

It's hard work, but I'm fit, and shunting keeps me fit. These craft are designed for open water, it would be very foolish to sail into close quarters in a blow unless one knows exactly what they are doing.....

Keep Shunting,
Balkan Shipyards
 
Shunting is easier than tacking, in big waves and wind. You don’t have to sail the boat through the wind. I have sailed a shunting proa, it’s odd, but they work. The one I sailed had some form of lug rig. A bit like a Wharram cat, it’s an ‘appropriate tech’ solution. I daresay it’s the quickest camper cruiser for the money. I enjoyed the experience, but decided it was worth paying for the other part of the trimaran😂. If my finances were more restricted, I’d look seriously at the idea. Think of it as a cruising dinghy.
 
Chiara’s slave said:
Shunting is easier than tacking, in big waves and wind. You don’t have to sail the boat through the wind. I have sailed a shunting proa, it’s odd, but they work. The one I sailed had some form of lug rig. A bit like a Wharram cat, it’s an ‘appropriate tech’ solution. I daresay it’s the quickest camper cruiser for the money. I enjoyed the experience, but decided it was worth paying for the other part of the trimaran😂. If my finances were more restricted, I’d look seriously at the idea. Think of it as a cruising dinghy.
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Very well put! Thank you, your input about shunting made my day. I have said many times "it takes a thousand shunts to become a shunter" because nobody likes it at first. But it grows onto you, once you finally get there, you discover the monster truly wasn't that scary....

It's a wet ride, dinghy sailing for sure! I bought my Mono in Poole, sailed around for a couple months during spring before crossing the channel... I would never sail a Proa in the channel during spring, on those cold drizzly, overcast sunless days! I think sailing couldn't be more depressing.

But on a nice warm day, in warm water, a good breeze, a single cloud just under the sun..... It's Magic!

Keep Tacking, Tri Sailor
Balkan Shipyards
 
Neeves said:
If you are really interested in building multihulls maybe you should consider yachts that people actually (build, buy and) sail.

They can be sold as 'simple' plans or you can buy routed 8' x 4' sheets all delivered in a 20' container and simply tape and glue it together. its not clear, at all, if this one was a home build or built by a boatbuilder. The access from bridge deck to the hulls can be for lithe owners but if you like performance they are difficult to beat (I've sailed on a Waterline 1160) - and make a real change from Lagoons and Bavs.

2000 Schionning 1160 Waterline

Jonathan
Click to expand...
If I had over $300 going spare…….

I love cats. The only one I could afford was a 24 footer, all fibre glass with solid aft deck, great sail and lots of space. But mostly I sailed monos…… berthing frees, cost of boat in first place etc. etc.
I think Chris white designs nice catamarans with lots of space, luxury and sea keeping qualities, but cheapest at about £1 million and a lot more expensive than that.
 
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OCuea said:
If I had over $300 going spare…….

I love cats. The only one I could afford was a 24 footer, all fibre glass with solid aft deck, great sail and lots of space. But mostly I sailed monos…… berthing frees, cost of boat in first place etc. etc.
I think Chris white designs nice catamarans with lots of space, luxury and sea keeping qualities, but cheapest at about £1 million and a lot more expensive than that.
Click to expand...

Be patient. Luck, being in the right place at the right time is never planned.

Jonathan
 
Neeves said:
I know nothing about this yacht except it was dried out along side us. The owner had built little stools between hull and seabed and being lightweight she had a minimalistic draught.

I thought it might be appropriate and intriguing.

View attachment 192427
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That's 'Gaiasdream' about 70 feet long, built in Australia by a Dutch guy, a talented builder, he built a few monos and went far, then he turned a Wharram into a tacking outrigger and if I'm not mistaken crossed the Atlantic....
This Proa, I believe he sold, she was Bermuda rigged and her huge plywood mast moves on a track back and forth. so for shunting, the headsail gets rolled up, the mast would move towards the stern, the new head sail rolls our, switch rudders, lift old drop new, sheet in and head off backwards which is actually forwards...

An example of a man imagination that turned into material, respect! Is she my cup of tea? No she isn't. But that's what half the planet says about my Proas...

keep Shunting,
Balkan Shipyards
 
Chiara’s slave said:
We end up shunting if a tack goes wrong of course. For a short distance anyway, then we turn it into a 3 point turn. All multis go quite well backwards, but not all quite as well as shunting proas. After all, which is the back, and which is the front?
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It's all Wharram's fault, about 40 years ago he wrote, Pacific Proas are the future, because they solve the tacking problems multihulls have... I don't remember the exact words, but that's close enough...
So I started building Proas... I love my 4th version, 'Crystal Clear', yet sometimes I wonder why? Why did I build such a wide vessel that is truly the smallest and most expensive liveaboard on the planet.... You pay for a Cat when you enter Port, but on a cat you have two hulls, yet each one is wider than the Proas single hull, meaning for the same fee you have two and a half more living area...

A liveaboard Proa starts at over 30 feet. I lived and cruised for a year with my wife, on a 22 foot mono, we had 4 berths, a galley, a head and so much more... I was as happy as a pig in shit! On our 24 foot Proa, we have two bunks, we sleep inline, I cant fall out of my bunk, because on both my sides is the hull, turning over in bed is a struggle.....

It's a proa, you either like them or you don't.
 
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It explains why they’ll never be mainstream, but nonetheless they have some strong points. Marketing as a dinghy cruiser, maybe. They’re an odd breed, those guys. New engineering and materials has made folding tris kings of the small multihull world. Just 2 designers have dominated that market, as it’s still quite niche.
 
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