Freebee
Well-Known Member
Marina rules say I shall not livaboard but I need to stay somewhere 4 nights a week -does that constitute living aboard??
what constitutes living aboard??
- Thread starter Freebee
- Start date
Channel Ribs
Well-Known Member
We had this recently at our local marina, I think so long as you have a land address and pay council tax their etc then they are ok about it.
You could ask them, say you are spending more time on board and what is the watershed?
You could ask them, say you are spending more time on board and what is the watershed?
A
Anonymous
Guest
Quite a lot of liveaboards have the appearance of water-'travellers' and that is often the reason marinas discourage it. If you are already in a marina, I wouldn't mention it to them. After all, you are paying for a berth and you have a perfect right to enjoy the amenity you are paying for. However, if your activities make you look as though you are a 'traveller' you will understand if they are less than happy - after all, most other marina users would probably object.
samwise
Well-Known Member
In Brittany this year I ran into a couple moored alongside us in the marina and being a new arrival I asked the usual questions about the area. To my query about finding a good restaurant I received the sniffy reply : " We don't eat out, we're liveaboards." I bet they're fun to be with!
Channel Ribs
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
..." We don't eat out, we're liveaboards." I bet they're fun to be with!
[/ QUOTE ]
Indeed. I live somewhere and eat out, maybe I have been doing it wrong all these years. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
..." We don't eat out, we're liveaboards." I bet they're fun to be with!
[/ QUOTE ]
Indeed. I live somewhere and eat out, maybe I have been doing it wrong all these years. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
chinita
Well-Known Member
They cannot be proper liveaboards or they would not be in a marina!
hlb
RIP
Dont know about that. But livaboards are quite easy to spot. There lines are a mixture of bits of string, and very heavy lines. Theres usually a couple of rusting bikes on top. The rigging looks a bit iffy and the hull has not been cleaned for a while. Theres rusty stuff all over the deck. Which is the replacement for the other rusty stuff before, that never happends. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Freebee
Well-Known Member
ahem fred drift= my boat very nice thank, all ropes match and no rusty bits of anthoing, not a bit traveller ish, in fact I will be fighting to prevent that lived in look. just need some valued opinions before putting my plan into operation.
Abigail
Well-Known Member
Hi - as proud-to-be-liveaboards, our boat is heavy in the water and she shows her miles. There aren't many bits of string and our mooring warps (in a strange marine with unknown weather coming) are indeed heavy. We eat out some of the time - do you eat out every night when you're in your home? On a forum entitled 'liveaboard link', I'd expect a bit more broadmindedness!
In terms of marinas - it varies. Four nights a week usually won't count. A key question for most of them is whether you want post delivered there - and most object. This is partly because they then have to handle it. Also, post delivered to your boat is a significant test for liability for council tax. I don't know about the Poole marinas so can't give local advice.
In our experience (3 years living aboard in the UK) most marinas are not bothered about quite heavy use so long as it not your only/main home. Some are very relaxed about that too, so long as you keep reasonably tidy and don't clutter the pontoons. A few are majorly laid back, but are often mud berths which may rule you out.
Best of luck
In terms of marinas - it varies. Four nights a week usually won't count. A key question for most of them is whether you want post delivered there - and most object. This is partly because they then have to handle it. Also, post delivered to your boat is a significant test for liability for council tax. I don't know about the Poole marinas so can't give local advice.
In our experience (3 years living aboard in the UK) most marinas are not bothered about quite heavy use so long as it not your only/main home. Some are very relaxed about that too, so long as you keep reasonably tidy and don't clutter the pontoons. A few are majorly laid back, but are often mud berths which may rule you out.
Best of luck
Richard10002
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Marina rules say I shall not livaboard but I need to stay somewhere 4 nights a week -does that constitute living aboard??
[/ QUOTE ]
Which marina? Somebody might phone up with an enquiry asking the question..... not necessarily you.
Having said that, 4 nights a week doesnt seem to constitute living aboard, particularly when you actually "live" at home.
Marina rules say I shall not livaboard but I need to stay somewhere 4 nights a week -does that constitute living aboard??
[/ QUOTE ]
Which marina? Somebody might phone up with an enquiry asking the question..... not necessarily you.
Having said that, 4 nights a week doesnt seem to constitute living aboard, particularly when you actually "live" at home.
robind
Well-Known Member
Whats the difference between living aboard and extended cruising?
A
Anonymous
Guest
There are legal definitions and regulatory definitions about certain terms. For example, in the EU, if you spend more than 183 days in a country in any calendar year you are (automatically) 'resident' in that country. In the UK there are terms that the courts use such as 'place of abode' and other terms such as 'ordinarily resident'. I don't know the legal significance of any of them but I am pretty sure that 'liveaboard' is not enshrined in an Act of Parliament /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Most people have a fixed address - they use a friend, family, or even a professional, e.g. accountant, and have bank, IR, and other formal stuff sent there.
There is an issue with the DVLA which, I think, has its own definitions aimed at finding out where the car is likely to be parked overnight rather than trying to establish ownership or particulars of owner.
There is an issue with the DVLA which, I think, has its own definitions aimed at finding out where the car is likely to be parked overnight rather than trying to establish ownership or particulars of owner.
absit_omen
Well-Known Member
Rather a generalisation, my dear old thing.
I would be happy to invite you for drinks aboard to dispel your theory. Like other liveaboards I take great pride of ownership and go to significant lengths to avoid stereotypeing.
I think you are confusing liveaboard cruisers with those colourful characters who, having exhausted welfare on land, embark on a 'life afloat' (a la Shepherds Marina, Gib (RIP)). After a few years, and several hundred litres of cheap brandy, venture ashore again to renew their aquaintance with social Services and the NHS for liver replacement.
I would be happy to invite you for drinks aboard to dispel your theory. Like other liveaboards I take great pride of ownership and go to significant lengths to avoid stereotypeing.
I think you are confusing liveaboard cruisers with those colourful characters who, having exhausted welfare on land, embark on a 'life afloat' (a la Shepherds Marina, Gib (RIP)). After a few years, and several hundred litres of cheap brandy, venture ashore again to renew their aquaintance with social Services and the NHS for liver replacement.
Richard10002
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Whats the difference between living aboard and extended cruising?
[/ QUOTE ]
Why do you ask?
FWIW having read Davids' reply to you, I am hoping to become "non resident" and "not ordinarily resident" for 5 years from next april, and it seems from a legal case earlier this year that the alternatives to the above is extended cruising.... according to the taxman.
Someone post a link here:
http://www.sykesanderson.com/Latest_news/news_060522_5.asp
but I havent been able to find the name of the case.
Various tax manuals/advice seem to suggest that leaving the UK for more than 3 years might qualify for non residence and not ordinarily resident...
so maybe extended cruising is sailing away for less than 3 years.
Whats the difference between living aboard and extended cruising?
[/ QUOTE ]
Why do you ask?
FWIW having read Davids' reply to you, I am hoping to become "non resident" and "not ordinarily resident" for 5 years from next april, and it seems from a legal case earlier this year that the alternatives to the above is extended cruising.... according to the taxman.
Someone post a link here:
http://www.sykesanderson.com/Latest_news/news_060522_5.asp
but I havent been able to find the name of the case.
Various tax manuals/advice seem to suggest that leaving the UK for more than 3 years might qualify for non residence and not ordinarily resident...
so maybe extended cruising is sailing away for less than 3 years.
KellysEye
Well-Known Member
>Whats the difference between living aboard and extended cruising?
The latter category (including us) call ourselves cruisers not liveaboards. We view liveaboards as people who live on their boats but don't sail much. I get the impression that the distinction is a heirachy to some people.
The latter category (including us) call ourselves cruisers not liveaboards. We view liveaboards as people who live on their boats but don't sail much. I get the impression that the distinction is a heirachy to some people.
roly_voya
Well-Known Member
Re: what constitutes living aboard?? - Whatever you like!
This subject always seems to bring out some interesting replies which may say more about the person making them than the subject! Also I am board, working a night shift on 'standby' i.e. have nothing to do unless something breaks. The boats out the water having new engine fitted so I am also landlocked. So if you fancy reading an essay be my guest! (is ther word limit?)
A few things on liveaboards
Liveaboard or any similar title is just a way YOU might describe yourself. If you say you live on a boat you are making a statement to people and will get a range of responses depending on how they feel about it. From experience this ranges from putting you in the same category as tramps tinkers and vagabonds to a misty eyed romantic jealousy.
The only exception to this is if you live on a 'houseboat' and the difference between a houseboat and a cruiser is that a houseboat occupies a council licensed residential mooring and you pay poll tax etc. just like in a house. In fact you do live in a house its just a floating one
What matters is where you are 'ordinarily resident' which is what people want when they ask for your home address. Unfortunately in the real world (as distinct from law courts) different people have quite different ideas about what constitutes your home address. Your can though, get a pretty good idea by looking at why they want to know as follows.
Gov. officials - NHS, tax etc. - either want to know if you are entitled to something or they can demand something from you. They have set rules that they apply such as how many days you have been in a county, did you earn any money etc.. This is probably the most complicated bit but fortunately the rules are written and you can either ask them or look them up. The fact that you are ordinarily resident in the UK for tax purposes doesn't mean you are for other things.
People you want money or services off!! - e.g. credit card companies, mobile phones and the marina - Generally don't care where or even if you are resident as long as they can get hold of you (or at least your assets). The trouble is they usually have rules to tell them if that's the case rather than common sense. This can get bazaar, for example the guy that owns the local chandlers couldn't get a loan for a new engine off the building society that held the mortgage to his house because only his wife lived there, he lives on the boat! (i.e. he is no longer on the electoral register at the house even thought he still owns it) The crunch one for this group seam to be whether you are on the electoral register and how long you have given the same address for (rather than lived there) - If you even hint to any of these people that it takes ten mim to cast off an set sail to S America they will naturally consider you a somewhat high credit risk. A good way of managing this if you need to is to check with a credit reference agency because they are the people they all check you out with - if your listed as 'homeless hobo' it doesn't matter if your rich and Sir somebody you're still a no go for them. The credit ref agency will also be happy to tell you what things effect you rating. Strange to say the mobile phone people seam to be the worst - you HAVE to give them recent utility bills in your name which is a problem on a boat or even sometimes when renting. Most marina seam to make the distinction not on how much time you spend on the boat but whether they have an address to send the bill to. If you pay weekly but give them a 'home address' you are a cruiser. If you pay on a 'contract' and give a home address you are 'resident'. If you get you copy of PBO sent to there office you are a 'Liveaboard'
So at one end of the scale if you own a house, pay taxes, are on the electoral register and your name is on the gas bill few people will care that in fact the kids live there and you haven't been back for 2 years!
At the other end if you get post sent to the marina, aren't on the electoral role anywhere because you move every six months and your gas bill is paid the chandlers in exchange for a new bottle - well you wanted freedom, you got it!
Obviously there are lots of places in between.
Also it take about 3 years to go from one to the other - whether that is loosing your shore based status or getting it back.
Now the interesting question is why people ask this question! Its something many people do ask who are thinking of 'taking the plunge'. Anyone who has already done it knows how it works for them. I think what is often at the back of it is that you have spent your whole life as a respectable citizen (more or less) and maybe even sent a few letters as disgruntled of Dishfoth to the papers about the 'dammed Gipsies' and suddenly your are afraid you might be becoming one. At he least you are suddenly realizing that all the supposed security that goes with being a 'respectable citizen' could suddenly vanish.
Well OK it can and it doesn't necessarily matter where you go. Despite working for the NHS and staying in the same locality after a couple of years the only thing that kept me from being totally in the homeless hobo cat was that I used my mums address. I still, on one occasion, couldn't get some stuff delivered even though I paid in cash via a switch card. This apparently was because there system did an automatic check to the electoral register to check that I did live at the address the card said and of course if I wasn't on it then I didn't live there. So if your status as a respectable citizen matters then you do need to positively maintain and preserve it because if you are a real genuine only home and don't work Liveaboard then you may as well be in a caravan!
Final points - back to the marina - Most don't seam to care about your residency status (at least on the west coast) had no problems with them taking mail for me.
Some do have a rule about needing a home address and don't do mail but if you ask they will tell you this. The staff will have nothing against you they just have a rule that says no address no stay and it can apply whether you want to stay one night or one year.
When you stay in a marina you are there guest and it's there choice. If they don't like the colour of you boat or your tee-shirt they can ask you to leave and the only thing you can do is smile and go. Maybe the real answer to what constitutes a live-abord is do you really care, there is always another marina, anchorage, county that you where thinking of seeing anyway.
If you do care ask yourself 'do I want a cruising boat or a houseboat' because maybe you don't like the insecurity of being a cruiser. If you are really interested in this read a book called The Adventure Alternative by Colin Mortlock. Nothing to do with sailing, he's a climber, but its a classic discourse on balancing the human need for adventure with the equally human need for adventure and very relevant to long distance cruising.
Bye, I'm going back to sorting out a router blade for cutting T&G in 1/2" planks
This subject always seems to bring out some interesting replies which may say more about the person making them than the subject! Also I am board, working a night shift on 'standby' i.e. have nothing to do unless something breaks. The boats out the water having new engine fitted so I am also landlocked. So if you fancy reading an essay be my guest! (is ther word limit?)
A few things on liveaboards
Liveaboard or any similar title is just a way YOU might describe yourself. If you say you live on a boat you are making a statement to people and will get a range of responses depending on how they feel about it. From experience this ranges from putting you in the same category as tramps tinkers and vagabonds to a misty eyed romantic jealousy.
The only exception to this is if you live on a 'houseboat' and the difference between a houseboat and a cruiser is that a houseboat occupies a council licensed residential mooring and you pay poll tax etc. just like in a house. In fact you do live in a house its just a floating one
What matters is where you are 'ordinarily resident' which is what people want when they ask for your home address. Unfortunately in the real world (as distinct from law courts) different people have quite different ideas about what constitutes your home address. Your can though, get a pretty good idea by looking at why they want to know as follows.
Gov. officials - NHS, tax etc. - either want to know if you are entitled to something or they can demand something from you. They have set rules that they apply such as how many days you have been in a county, did you earn any money etc.. This is probably the most complicated bit but fortunately the rules are written and you can either ask them or look them up. The fact that you are ordinarily resident in the UK for tax purposes doesn't mean you are for other things.
People you want money or services off!! - e.g. credit card companies, mobile phones and the marina - Generally don't care where or even if you are resident as long as they can get hold of you (or at least your assets). The trouble is they usually have rules to tell them if that's the case rather than common sense. This can get bazaar, for example the guy that owns the local chandlers couldn't get a loan for a new engine off the building society that held the mortgage to his house because only his wife lived there, he lives on the boat! (i.e. he is no longer on the electoral register at the house even thought he still owns it) The crunch one for this group seam to be whether you are on the electoral register and how long you have given the same address for (rather than lived there) - If you even hint to any of these people that it takes ten mim to cast off an set sail to S America they will naturally consider you a somewhat high credit risk. A good way of managing this if you need to is to check with a credit reference agency because they are the people they all check you out with - if your listed as 'homeless hobo' it doesn't matter if your rich and Sir somebody you're still a no go for them. The credit ref agency will also be happy to tell you what things effect you rating. Strange to say the mobile phone people seam to be the worst - you HAVE to give them recent utility bills in your name which is a problem on a boat or even sometimes when renting. Most marina seam to make the distinction not on how much time you spend on the boat but whether they have an address to send the bill to. If you pay weekly but give them a 'home address' you are a cruiser. If you pay on a 'contract' and give a home address you are 'resident'. If you get you copy of PBO sent to there office you are a 'Liveaboard'
So at one end of the scale if you own a house, pay taxes, are on the electoral register and your name is on the gas bill few people will care that in fact the kids live there and you haven't been back for 2 years!
At the other end if you get post sent to the marina, aren't on the electoral role anywhere because you move every six months and your gas bill is paid the chandlers in exchange for a new bottle - well you wanted freedom, you got it!
Obviously there are lots of places in between.
Also it take about 3 years to go from one to the other - whether that is loosing your shore based status or getting it back.
Now the interesting question is why people ask this question! Its something many people do ask who are thinking of 'taking the plunge'. Anyone who has already done it knows how it works for them. I think what is often at the back of it is that you have spent your whole life as a respectable citizen (more or less) and maybe even sent a few letters as disgruntled of Dishfoth to the papers about the 'dammed Gipsies' and suddenly your are afraid you might be becoming one. At he least you are suddenly realizing that all the supposed security that goes with being a 'respectable citizen' could suddenly vanish.
Well OK it can and it doesn't necessarily matter where you go. Despite working for the NHS and staying in the same locality after a couple of years the only thing that kept me from being totally in the homeless hobo cat was that I used my mums address. I still, on one occasion, couldn't get some stuff delivered even though I paid in cash via a switch card. This apparently was because there system did an automatic check to the electoral register to check that I did live at the address the card said and of course if I wasn't on it then I didn't live there. So if your status as a respectable citizen matters then you do need to positively maintain and preserve it because if you are a real genuine only home and don't work Liveaboard then you may as well be in a caravan!
Final points - back to the marina - Most don't seam to care about your residency status (at least on the west coast) had no problems with them taking mail for me.
Some do have a rule about needing a home address and don't do mail but if you ask they will tell you this. The staff will have nothing against you they just have a rule that says no address no stay and it can apply whether you want to stay one night or one year.
When you stay in a marina you are there guest and it's there choice. If they don't like the colour of you boat or your tee-shirt they can ask you to leave and the only thing you can do is smile and go. Maybe the real answer to what constitutes a live-abord is do you really care, there is always another marina, anchorage, county that you where thinking of seeing anyway.
If you do care ask yourself 'do I want a cruising boat or a houseboat' because maybe you don't like the insecurity of being a cruiser. If you are really interested in this read a book called The Adventure Alternative by Colin Mortlock. Nothing to do with sailing, he's a climber, but its a classic discourse on balancing the human need for adventure with the equally human need for adventure and very relevant to long distance cruising.
Bye, I'm going back to sorting out a router blade for cutting T&G in 1/2" planks
A
Anonymous
Guest
Re: what constitutes living aboard?? - Whatever you like!
You can opt out of being searchable in the Electoral Register. Loads of people do, a bit like being ex-directory and it's done for all sorts of perfectly normal rational reasons. I've never heard of anyone having difficulties as a result.
Surely the mobile phone companies cannot expect to see a utility bill in every customer's own name? That would reduce their potential market by a factor of two. ISTR that you are usually asked for a couple of things out of a list. NHS card, Driving Licence, recent bank statement, CC statement, etc. Utility bills are one of a number of choices.
You can opt out of being searchable in the Electoral Register. Loads of people do, a bit like being ex-directory and it's done for all sorts of perfectly normal rational reasons. I've never heard of anyone having difficulties as a result.
Surely the mobile phone companies cannot expect to see a utility bill in every customer's own name? That would reduce their potential market by a factor of two. ISTR that you are usually asked for a couple of things out of a list. NHS card, Driving Licence, recent bank statement, CC statement, etc. Utility bills are one of a number of choices.
badman
Well-Known Member
Stop worrying you have paid the Marina fee enjoy yourself.
Just keep the boat tidy and consider other boat owners.
If the Marina are upset about your use of the berth they will tell you.
Just keep the boat tidy and consider other boat owners.
If the Marina are upset about your use of the berth they will tell you.
Richard10002
Well-Known Member
????? Where did I say that I was worried???
robind
Well-Known Member
Nice one Absit! Im still laughing /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif))
