Westerly OceanLord and Lloyds hull ratings

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herdman

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Would be very grateful for some one to shed some light on LLoyds hull/stability ratings... When I look at adverts for boats like the Westerly Oceanlord mention is made of a Lloyds dop hull stability rating or something like that. Could anyone explain what this means? It is like a ballast ratio or something? I noticed that the ballast ratio on an Oceanlord is about 35% compared to about 45% on the smaller Oceanquest - surely this does not mean the Oceanquest is more stable (I realise that ballast ratio is not everything..) Could someone explain what a Lloyds rating means? Does it affect the AVS etc? or is it to do with how strong the hull is?? Is it really a big plus?? And would be interested to know if anyone has any views more generally on the Oceanlord as a boat. Thanks very much, Giles Herdman.
 
He might if ,as so often happens on that forum , his post is not high jacked as 'mates' start discussing something completely different.I find the whole discussion list thing very difficult to follow .

I have always thought the Lloyds appendage indicated a regulated standard of build quality

Best of luck
 
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I find the whole discussion list thing very difficult to follow .

[/ QUOTE ]

and so do I. That was the reason that the forum was started, but there were a vociferous few against it, and that's the reason the two are in operation. It was hoped people would go to the forum, but the discussion list.....

More often than not, Ctrl A, and then Ctrl/Shift C - drivel read (although not read)!!

Yes, I know what you mean.

The forum may be the better bet, though it may take a while longer to get an answer.
 
There are a number of calculations which apply to boats and stability. You can take an online course here and this will enable you to try the online calculators. If it is nothing else, it is a great primer. Angles of Vanishing Stability, Ballast Ratios, Displacement vs Sailarea... oh what jolly fun. As to Lloyds, that is just like Quality to ISO 9000 or whatever, ie almost meaningless. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
I know of no Lloyds stability ratings, only a Lloyds standard of layup for earlier hulls; even this has been discontinued for new builds.

Standards of design are now governed by the EU regulations -Recreational Craft Directive.

Stability ratings are available for most hulls - the familiar curves accompany most reviews and are avilable from manufacturers. Less importance seems to be paid these days to single pieces of data such as ballast/ displacemnt ratios for hulls. The approach is more multi-factorial reflecting the complexity of a hull's performance under different conditions and the different contributions to sailing performance and safety from overall displacement / ballast ratio / and form stability etc.

Concerning the suitability of the Oceanlord, I know it is a very capable sailing boat with many long voyages to its credit. However, its internal layout is rather inefficient, even dated,
and as a second-hand vessel, the prices asked are unattractive vs newer and equally capable and better equipped boats.

There has been much talk of integral boat safety and frequent questioning of modern hulls as to whether they are "up to the job". I know of no convincing evidence that shows older hulls to be a better buy or safer. Indeed, in 1998 I myself passed
from the old world of the Westerly (much loved I assure you) to a new Bavaria fully persuaded that my new boat was built with better materials and to stricter standards than my former love. I think it pays to approach boat purchase with as open a mind as possible, and beware of the folklore!

PWG
 
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Concerning the suitability of the Oceanlord, I know it is a very capable sailing boat with many long voyages to its credit. However, its internal layout is rather inefficient, even dated,
and as a second-hand vessel, the prices asked are unattractive vs newer and equally capable and better equipped boats.


[/ QUOTE ] Why drift threads with such a contentious statement?

I admit that I am a Westerly owner, but I have NO IDEA what you mean by 'inefficient layout'. The layout of our Sealord (very similar to the Oceanlord) is fantastic for us sailing as a family both at sea and in port. The prices of second hand Westerly's are 'high' because people will pay for what they get.

In a free market, don't complain about price in the same sentence as quality, desirablity, availability etc . If the boats were as bad as you claim the price would be cheaper...

I sail Bav's regularly and they are a lot of boat for the money and do a great job for lots of people. I also know which boat I would prefer take across the Atlantic.
 
"The prices of second hand Westerly's are 'high' because people will pay for what they get."

John, a robust retort, but not one based on fact. In no way do I run these boats down - I sailed two over a period of 13 years!

Westerly boats in the 35 ft + category are relatively high priced because, as you know, they were expensive vs competiton when new. This related to the high costs Westerly incurred and their low sales volumes - all problems brought on by their incompetent management. Now that competiton has advanced its offerings at better prices, and Westerly has sadly priced itself out of the market, second hand Westerlys trade at inflated prices reflecting these facts.

One of the design problems Westerly encountered was poor use of internal cube compared to the new generation of, mainly European, boats. This of course is a major consideration for owners.

As to your comment about which make is better for crossing the Atlantic, you might, on maturer reflection, consider this an unsupportable slur?

PWG
 
<span style="color:blue">Westerly boats in the 35 ft + category are relatively high priced because, as you know, they were expensive vs competiton when new. This related to the high costs Westerly incurred and their low sales volumes - all problems brought on by their incompetent management. Now that competiton has advanced its offerings at better prices, and Westerly has sadly priced itself out of the market, second hand Westerlys trade at inflated prices reflecting these facts. </span> The prices of second hand Westerlies has little to do with the price of the boats new. Westerly went out of production because they couldn't compete and you are correct to point this out. However its second hand prices we were discussing and prices continue to be strong because people will pay for what they want. Good Westerly yachts still change hands at a price that you can buy a new Bavaria for, but its a free market and no-one forces people to pay the premium... The point I am making is that people choose to pay the price.

<span style="color:blue"> One of the design problems Westerly encountered was poor use of internal cube compared to the new generation of, mainly European, boats. This of course is a major consideration for owners.</span> I don't understand what you mean. The internal volume of our Westerly seems to be used fairly efficiently, and no less efficiently than the Bav 34's and 36's that I sail regularly. In fact, many people (us included) prefer the layout.

<span style="color:blue">As to your comment about which make is better for crossing the Atlantic, you might, on maturer reflection, consider this an unsupportable slur?</span>
Unsupportable slur? When we are overpressed our boat leans over and complains by getting heavier on the helm. You notice after a while (or sooner if you are sensitive to sail trim and handling) and you can do something about it. Ease the main, put in a reef, flatten the main etc. When I am sailing the Bav 34 or 36 and the wind gusts, you either have to dump the main (which isn't easy as the mainsheet is not in the best of places for such games) or you round up as the rudder gives up the fight with the forces involved. Our Sealord is a pleasure to sail; lots of modern boats are a pain the backside. And I am not just having a go at Bav's either!. I repeat, I am not just bashing Bav's, as there are lots of other modern boats which are equally badly mannered - but you did say that my preference for which one I will sail the Atlantic in was unsupportable...
 
The prices of second hand Westerlys, and for that matter Moody, Sadler, Contessa and a range of others, are high because that's what people pay for them, or at least what people ask for them. Whilst I'm sure plenty are sold for considerably less, the same is true for all marques, new intermediate or old. Brand new Jen/Ben/Bav are sold at a discount or spec'd up to sell, used ones are marked down due to survey, and the same for the MAB's.

I'm not sure to what extent the purchasers of the older marques are aware, or even care what they had cost new, how they compared with the competition then, or how good the management were. I can't imagine how anyone would pay an inflated price based on your assertions. I think the price in 2006 reflects the value in 2006, no more no less.

Of the design 'problems' of the 1980's, this was the state of the current market. Sailors were more likely to be sailors than caravanners, and twin, double aft cabins were not the order of the day. It is a matter of fact that boats with a shallow forefoot and a fat arse have particular handling traits. One of these is the ability to tack thro' 180 in a gust, something that many designs can acheive, but is seemingly more likely these days.

As for crossing the Atlantic, you can't argue against someones preference for what they would rather cross an ocean in. If that were possible, many wives, lovers and partners would have successfully disuaded thier other halves not to row across the pond over the years.

Me, I would probably choose a cat, I don't think I could stand three weeks of rolling, even in a Westerly!
 
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The prices of second hand Westerlys, and for that matter Moody, Sadler, Contessa and a range of others, are high because that's what people pay for them, or at least what people ask for them. Whilst I'm sure plenty are sold for considerably less, the same is true for all marques, new intermediate or old. Brand new Jen/Ben/Bav are sold at a discount or spec'd up to sell.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with that part of your posting but believe boats that are no longer available do often command a high price due to perceived quality and rarity rather than actual quality. Boats with long new waiting lists also command a high price. Secondhand AWB prices understandably suffer from the very latest design being available at a good price within a few months - hence people are tempted to buy new unless the secondhand price is heavily discounted.

Unfortunately many interpret the "high" price to infer quality and the cheaper price to infer "lower quality" where the truth is that AWB are cheap due to modern designs, materials and economies of scale and hence I agree with the other comment keep an open mind when listening to folk law!! How many modern boats made with Isaphalic resins will suffer osmosis compared to older boats?

A reality of life for me is that I would not get SWMBO sailing in an old dark wood design as she finds them dingy!
 
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Me, I would probably choose a cat, I don't think I could stand three weeks of rolling, even in a Westerly!

[/ QUOTE ] And the the trouble is I can't afford a cat thats big enough to avoid slamming in ahead sea. I have crossed oceans, and the rolling is perhaps like childbirth - something forgotten about shortly after the arrival!
 
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