Watchkeeping routine - mistakes

[john_morris_uk]

You live and learn and I tell this tale as a lesson for others.

Years ago I was skippering a yacht with a fairly large crew. We arranged a watch bill which was mutually agreed and set off through the night. I was called at 0400 and my wife came on watch at the same time. The crew were sleeping so peacefully, we decided to let them have a lie in, but eventually we got tired and gave them a shake. Their attitude was - but we're not on watch now - look at the time. I said, "We've let you have a lie in, its time to get up and we'll slide the watch system right by a few hours and carry on."

Instead of being happy for the extra sleep, they moaned for the rest of the trip, and ever since then, if the watch bill says someone is on watch, they get shaken fifteen minutes early and they come and relieve me whatever happens...

In retrospect, it all seems simple, but at the time I thought I was being nice to them.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Ah, the penalty for an early hours quick dawn-breaking knee-trembler in the cockpit!

 

[Chris_Robb]

Ah, the penalty for an early hours quick dawn-breaking knee-trembler in the cockpit!

well really - you shouldn't be so presumptious.....

 

[Poignard]

In retrospect, it all seems simple, but at the time I thought I was being nice to them.

When dealing with underlings never forget the old adage "give them an inch and they'll take a yard".

 

[Woodlouse]

In my experience, if you want a watch system to work it has to be completely tight. Everyone should be on time, and if you feel like staying up a little longer, then you wake up the next watch anyway. It's the only way everyone will be completely happy.

If you're sailing with good friends you can be a little more informal by giving or taking a few minutes here and there, but large deviations from the system will cause it to fall apart.

 

[Bosunof]

Recently did a long-ish trip and established, with just three on board, a three hours on six off pattern. Worked well till the weather really worsened. Then we doubled the deck watch so that we were six on three off. Managed that for just two days after which we were very tired. It was really fortunate that we could stop and rest. That scheme could not go on much longer.

Circumstances always dictate what the pattern of watches should be. Safety is all important. I don't think it is a place for democracy. AND, the start and finish times are mandatory and not open to negotiation or slippage.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Recently did a long-ish trip and established, with just three on board, a three hours on six off pattern. Worked well till the weather really worsened. Then we doubled the deck watch so that we were six on three off. Managed that for just two days after which we were very tired. It was really fortunate that we could stop and rest. That scheme could not go on much longer.

Circumstances always dictate what the pattern of watches should be. Safety is all important. I don't think it is a place for democracy. AND, the start and finish times are mandatory and not open to negotiation or slippage.

I agree - it was a lesson learned.

 

[Ubergeekian]

Circumstances always dictate what the pattern of watches should be. Safety is all important. I don't think it is a place for democracy. AND, the start and finish times are mandatory and not open to negotiation or slippage.

On my boat, everything is open to negotiation and slippage. But then, I sail for fun and not to fulfill strange Captain Bligh fantasies.

 

[alant]

On my boat, everything is open to negotiation and slippage. But then, I sail for fun and not to fulfill strange Captain Bligh fantasies.

The whole purpose of a watch system, is to ensure that when the 'sh-t' hits the fan ( which invariably happens on a voyage), all crew are available to deal. If the load is being placed upon a few, making them even more fatigued, these (normally the more 'senior' in experience) will not be able to make the sensible decisions needed.

This is not Capt Bligh, but common sense practice, proven by generations of matelots!

 

[BlueSkyNick]

Recently did a long-ish trip and established, with just three on board, a three hours on six off pattern. Worked well till the weather really worsened. Then we doubled the deck watch so that we were six on three off. Managed that for just two days after which we were very tired. It was really fortunate that we could stop and rest. That scheme could not go on much longer.

Circumstances always dictate what the pattern of watches should be. Safety is all important. I don't think it is a place for democracy. AND, the start and finish times are mandatory and not open to negotiation or slippage.

When I and two others hereabouts crossed Biscay, we had a 4/4/4 system - which we discussed and agreed in advance to establish preferences and take input from others' experience.

4hours off watch tucked up in a pit,
4 hours on standby which meant being kitted up but allowed to sleep in the saloon ready to be in the cockpit if called,
4 hours on full watch mainly in the cockpit.

Rotation was man coming off full watch turned in, and standby man came up to full watch, etc.

Once set off we stuck to it, despite my attempts to lose weight rapidly due to some dodgy Spanish chicken !!

 

[maxi77]

Recently did a long-ish trip and established, with just three on board, a three hours on six off pattern. Worked well till the weather really worsened. Then we doubled the deck watch so that we were six on three off. Managed that for just two days after which we were very tired. It was really fortunate that we could stop and rest. That scheme could not go on much longer.

Circumstances always dictate what the pattern of watches should be. Safety is all important. I don't think it is a place for democracy. AND, the start and finish times are mandatory and not open to negotiation or slippage.

I would agree, 3 on 6 off is relatively comfortable, where as 6 on 3 off is very punishing, despite in theory giving you 8 hours of watch in every 24. One thing many people do not see is that rest periods are more effective the longer they are, thus 9 hours taken in one will tend to reset you back at zero whilst the same 9 hoours of in 3 hour slots is probably little better than 4 or 5 hours continuous.

As for democracy I think there is a need for some level of consensus particularly when the chips are down, but once the regime is agreed it has to be strictly adhered to unless there is good reason to change. I think there is also a need to all to monitor their shipmates for signs of overtiredness.

 

[Ubergeekian]

The whole purpose of a watch system, is to ensure that when the 'sh-t' hits the fan ( which invariably happens on a voyage), all crew are available to deal. If the load is being placed upon a few, making them even more fatigued, these (normally the more 'senior' in experience) will not be able to make the sensible decisions needed.

Which is precisely why, on a typically short handed yacht, it makes sense to have some flexibility in watch arrangements. If, for example, A has had a thoroughly knackering 4 hours, it may make sense for B to take 6 hours next, to allow A to rest properly. It makes no sense to have any member of the crew unnecessarily tired for the sake of sticking to a paper rota.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Years ago I was skippering a yacht with a fairly large crew.

"We've let you have a lie in, its time to get up and we'll slide the watch system right by a few hours and carry on."

Instead of being happy for the extra sleep, they moaned for the rest of the trip

One person unilaterally rearanging the whole watch system for a large crew on the fly without any consultation is very likely to cause a great amount of upset! What amazes me is that you actually thought it wouldn't be a problem and actually needed to learn from it!

In contrast I've never known letting someone have a bit of extra sleep causing the slightest bit of a problem. I wish it happened more often.

I guess the most common time weekend sailors use a watch system is on the Friday night milk run to France from the South coast. In that case even unilaterally rearanging the whole watch system doesn't seem to be a problem - everyone wins - unless someone misses something nice like a sunrise or somesuch but that can be easily managed.

Common sense, isn't it?

 

[goboatingnow]

I made the reverse mistake a few years ago, woke up too early and got up and was wandering around below, skipper was on watch and asked why I was up. Suffering from not engaging brain before opening mouth, i said I wasnt'tired. For my troubles got remainder of his watch ( 2 hours) and then my own as well. Wont do that again in a hurry. ( Ps never admit to not being tired)

But I do agree, in a short handed situation, you will have to vary the watch sometimes as some people can get overtired and some ( like me) sometime need little sleep. Then we usually stand asymetric watches for a while.

 

[s/v moondancer]

Old Buggers

We did Puerto Rico to Halifax Nova Scotia...14 days at sea (no auto pilot) with a crew whose average age was 66. We did 3 on and 6 off so that we could get our beauty sleep. My wife and I, both late 50's, do 4 on 4 off when we do passages alone and sleep almost as much as we are awake.

 

[john_morris_uk]

One person unilaterally rearanging the whole watch system for a large crew on the fly without any consultation is very likely to cause a great amount of upset! What amazes me is that you actually thought it wouldn't be a problem and actually needed to learn from it!

Common sense, isn't it?

It was a long time ago and I was rather young and still learning about people and skippering yachts...

The trouble with common sense is that it isn't always common. I hope that we all learn from experience, and I was admitting a mistake I'd made in the past. I am also sure that I still make plenty of them!

 

[oldsaltoz]

The mistake I made when delivering a yacht down south was to believe a crew member who ststed his friend was a good sailor and wnted him as an extra crew.

Thinking this might mean a bit more sleep and help on the trip I agreed. First night out I double checked all was well and around 02:00 headed for my break, waking about 2 hours later; I had that strange feeling you get that all is not as it should be.

Made my way to the cockpit to find my friend fast asleep and his good sailor friend wide awake and steering us almost due East out to see.

When I asked him why had he changed the heading he responded "I haven't, I've been heading for that light ahead all the time."

The light was the stern light on another vessel.

Never, never take the word of 'anyone' about how competent a stranger crew member is without first checking for yourself.

As luck had it the water only got deeper in the direction he was taking us and no big lumps. I worked out it was the change in the motion of the hull that woke me, I have never allowed an unknown near the tiller/wheel since unless it's full daylight with plenty of activity on deck.

Avagoodweekend......

 

[mollyoxford]

Which is precisely why, on a typically short handed yacht, it makes sense to have some flexibility in watch arrangements. If, for example, A has had a thoroughly knackering 4 hours, it may make sense for B to take 6 hours next, to allow A to rest properly. It makes no sense to have any member of the crew unnecessarily tired for the sake of sticking to a paper rota.

People do vary in the amount of sleep they require, and in what pattern, and (important point) none of us gets any choice in how we are! E.g. I need about an hour's more sleep than mostfolks - but I actually do *better* on 3-on 3-off or 4-on 4-off (or in fact ANY kind of watch system) than a shoreside 16-on 8-off. I have sailed with people who can stay up for 48 hours to no ill effect at all - but then they need 13 hours sleep to recover. Some love early mornings , some hate them and can't function - but are great late at night.

For best efficiency and safety, if every knows each other well, and appreciates each other's strengths and weaknesses, the watch system can be tuned to suit without ill-feeling. When people do not know each other very well, I feel it's best to stick to a fixed watch system as that seems 'fairer' to most people. Crew morale and social dynamics are also a safety factor - a happy and co-operative crew is far better and more effective than one seething with resentments!

I would also say that even for a weekend overnight channel-crossing type trip (especially a race, or if the weather is iffy making it hard work), it is important to start the watch system on time - you are likely to have folks that have been up since 6am, done a days work, packed and driven down to the boat etc. and may be pretty tired. Arrange beforehand who gets 'early kip' - sensibly those that can actually sleep at (say) 9pm, rather than the night owls...

 

[Ubergeekian]

I would also say that even for a weekend overnight channel-crossing type trip (especially a race, or if the weather is iffy making it hard work), it is important to start the watch system on time - you are likely to have folks that have been up since 6am, done a days work, packed and driven down to the boat etc. and may be pretty tired. Arrange beforehand who gets 'early kip' - sensibly those that can actually sleep at (say) 9pm, rather than the night owls...

Good points. I think it's very important that people know in advance how much sleep they are going to get so they can prepare themselves mentally for the trip ... randomly changing watch times would be infuriating. The sort of variation I have in mind is "You look knackered, Fred, so I'll take her till 6 instead of 4 and you might then be on a bit longer till I wake up" (I've done that one) or "What do you think, people - shall we stick to 4 on 4 off or would something else suit you?" (I've done that one too).

The sort of skipper who presumes to know best, never dreams of consulting the crew and wouldn't change his plans if Torquemada had the red hot pincers on him is, I feel, vaguely depressing, rather amusing and all too frequent.

 

[jason -and the arguenauts]

Had a real row with an old friend over this. It was his boat and he was adamant that the two of us should do 3 on 3 off upt the Irish sea. I wasnt happy with this at all - I can easily do far longer but dont cope at all well with short bursts of sleep. So I let it run and did the 2400 to 0700 graveyard watch, as bright as a button. In fact more alerts than during the day since at night there are always lights to pick up and identify etc

It was his boat and I should probably have stuck to the times, but equally he should have recognised that we all cope differently with lack of sleep and accepted that I knew best what worked best for me.

he was Capn Bligh and I mutinied.