Voyaging post-brexit with one spouse having an EU passport

[TonyMS]

There must be quite a few couples, like us, where one spouse always had, or has recently aquired an EU passport. We're trying to find out the best way of taking advantage of this to enable voyaging in the EU for more than 90 in 180 days post-brexit. In our case, we want to voyage mainly in Greek waters for about 5 months a year, as we have for the last few years.

First, you obviously need your marriage certificate. We have had ours officially translated into Greek, which cost us 20 euros in Preveza. I've seen a suggestion that you should have the translation apostiled. I hope this is unnecessary, as the quote we had for it was £400!

Second, I assume we should present our passports together with our marriage certificate when we arrive in Greece. But is there anything you need to do beforehand?

Third, before 90 days are up, I think the British half of the couple needs to register with the police. Maybe the EU half should register as well. You probably need to show health insurance. We have got and registered S1s, which I believe will deal with this. A possible problem is that the buff card you get on registration is the same as the provisional residence card you get if you want to become a permanent resident, which becomes invalid if you spend less than 180 days in the country in a year. Maybe we'll have to do this afresh every year.

Has any forumite useful experience that they'd like to share?

TonyMS

 

[Graham376]

Being married to an EU citizen won't give you more that 90/180 within Schengen, we're in the same situation and have looked into it. OTOH, marriage to a citizen in some countries allows you easily to become a citizen (or dual citizenship) and have full rights. Not aware of situation in Greece but maybe your solution is to take out residency?

 

[st599]

Being married to an EU citizen gives you the right to live with them in the EU country they are resident in. If they live outside the EU, it doesn't give you any rights.

 

[syvictoria]

Being married to an EU citizen gives you the right to live with them in the EU country they are resident in. If they live outside the EU, it doesn't give you any rights.

+1. Sadly I too have researched and found this to be true. Sorry.

Edited to add: I'm now not sure if the above is in fact true, as discussed below...

 

[Travelling Westerly]

So are we saying that his EU passport holder/long term partner gives him no benefits at all?
I was reading the EU website rules etc and it seemed they could not refuse the non EU partner residence if they applied. Perhaps I need to re read it all and it may have been subject to the EU passport holder applying for residence but I didn't read it that way?

 

[syvictoria]

The passport holder has to also be an EU resident for any of the benefits to apply to family members. From 1/1/21, residents of Britain will no longer fulfil that criteria. Rubbish, isn't it....

 

[Travelling Westerly]

Ah OK so the EU passport holder obtains residency which I assume will be relatively straight forward as an EU member (typed with a grin) then the non EU partner goes for residency which I also assume will be straight forward (bigger grin).
I'm in the same boat as the Op and am planning a year or more in Portugal first moving in as time goes on. So again I assume residency to be sought for each country there after. Why did we leave!

 

[Graham376]

Ah OK so the EU passport holder obtains residency which I assume will be relatively straight forward as an EU member (typed with a grin) then the non EU partner goes for residency which I also assume will be straight forward (bigger grin).
I'm in the same boat as the Op and am planning a year or more in Portugal first moving in as time goes on. So again I assume residency to be sought for each country there after. Why did we leave!

Yes, my wife is a citizen of Portugal but, if I didn't have residence or take out citizenship, I would be limited to 90/180 there, as elsewhere.

 

[syvictoria]

Yes, my wife is a citizen of Portugal but, if I didn't have residence or take out citizenship, I would be limited to 90/180 there, as elsewhere.

So, for the avoidance of any doubt... After 1/1/21, a Brit with an Irish passport takes up residency in France. My understanding is that this gives his/her spouse full FoM so long as they are travelling together, as well as an easier path to residency in France. Is that correct?

If so, for seasonal cruisers, it will perhaps only be necessary to have residency in one EU country, and not necessarily every country along the way (as suggested in post #7). That is obviously entirely aside from meeting any specific residency requirements in terms of days spent in the country, paying tax, etc.

 

[Graham376]

Someone with an EU passport has the right to take up residence anywhere in the EU (as we have until 31/12) but non-EU spouses or partners don't have freedom of movement. They still have to register for residence in their own right but for a spouse it's an easy route. They are however still subject to Schengen 90/180 days outside country of residence because they're not EU citizens.

 

[syvictoria]

Someone with an EU passport has the right to take up residence anywhere in the EU (as we have until 31/12) but non-EU spouses or partners don't have freedom of movement. They still have to register for residence in their own right but for a spouse it's an easy route. They are however still subject to Schengen 90/180 days outside country of residence because they're not EU citizens.

Thanks. I agree with everything in your first two sentences. The last one is something of a surprise however. Is it not true that EU citizens have the right to be accompanied by their spouse when exercising their mobility rights? If so, surely that means full FoM?

Edited to add: In theory the non-EU spouse doesn't need to be either an EU citizen nor an EU resident in order to have the right to accompany their EU-citizen spouse, so long as the latter is also resident somewhere in the EU too.

 

[RAI]

I think immigration treats everyone as an individual these days. Being a spouse carries little value.

 

[TonyMS]

So, I think it is clear that you have to apply for residence in one country if you want to stay in the EU for more than 90 days. The issue for us is what happens if you then spend less than 180 days a year in that country. Maybe your residency becomes invalid. In which case can you start again next year? And, do they check in the normal course of events anyway?

 

[Graham376]

So, I think it is clear that you have to apply for residence in one country if you want to stay in the EU for more than 90 days. The issue for us is what happens if you then spend less than 180 days a year in that country. Maybe your residency becomes invalid. In which case can you start again next year? And, do they check in the normal course of events anyway?

If you are seen to be absent then yes, it will be invalid and at the end of the 5 years you won't be able to convert to permanent status. When I converted to permanent residence a few years ago, my temporary had run out several years before and I didn't have to prove I had been present but by then had our own property so assumed to be resident. Some people have in the last year been able to obtain another 5 years to start again but as third country residents next year, may be more difficult. The new Schengen database may be able to be used to check on movements and time in country.

 

[syvictoria]

Just to add to my post above, how does Article 6 of Directive 2004/38/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 29 April 2004 on the right of citizens of the Union and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States relate to this?:

Article 6
Right of residence for up to three months
1. Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the territory of another Member State for a period of up to three months without any conditions or any formalities other than the requirement to hold a valid identity card or passport.
2. The provisions of paragraph 1 shall also apply to family members in possession of a valid passport who are not nationals of a Member State, accompanying or joining the Union citizen.

Does this not provide a solution for couples where one is a third country national and the other is a (non resident?) EU citizen, so long as they don't wish to spend more than three months in any one country? (Additionally, I think that in this instance the clock can in theory be reset simply by leaving and returning the country in question.)

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I am pretty sure a 3rd country spouse gets residency in the country of residence of their EU partner, but only a 90/180 day tourist visa for the rest of the Schengen area.

In Germany, a 3rd country citizen needs to apply for a "family reunion visa" which grants them residency in Germany to join their German spouse, and it includes a 90/180 Schengen tourist visa.

General information:

If you are married or will get married to a German citizen, or if you are a parent of a German child and wish to seek gainful permanent residency in Germany (or staying in Germany longer than 3 months), you are required to obtain a residence permit in the form of a visa.

Once all required documents have been submitted, the application and supporting documents will be forwarded to the appropriate German authorities at the applicant’s intended place of residence and employment during his/her stay in Germany. The processing can take up to 12 weeks. As soon as the application has been approved by the German authority, the Embassy/Consulate will issue a national visa for the first 90 days of the intended stay. A final residence permit for a longer period (usually the first year of studies in Germany) will be issued upon arrival by the Aliens’ Authority.

Although the family reunion visa is called a “national visa”, please note that it does also entitle its holder to enter other Schengen countries for a stay of up to 90 days for tourism purposes.

https://www.germany.info/blob/97761.../familiy-reunion-german-familymember-data.pdf

https://www.germany.info/blob/23757...7/erklaerung-zur-beziehung-besuch-en-data.pdf

I would imagine it is basically the same as residency, a sovereign state can decide who it grants residency to within its own borders, but cannot decide the same on behalf of other Schengen member states. So the 3rd country spouse gets residency in the same country as their EU spouse, but only gets 90/180 access to other Schengen member states.

To travel round the EU, the EU citizen will need to register as resident in each country they visit and their non-EU spouse will need to then follow them on a family reunion visa if they want to stay more than 90/180 in their next country - a real PITA but possible.

 

[Graham376]

Just to add to my post above, how does Article 6 of Directive 2004/38/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 29 April 2004 on the right of citizens of the Union and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States relate to this?:
Does this not provide a solution for couples where one is a third country national and the other is a (non resident?) EU citizen, so long as they don't wish to spend more than three months in any one country? (Additionally, I think that in this instance the clock can in theory be reset simply by leaving and returning the country in question.)

What it's saying is that a non EU resident can be in an EU state for 3 months as part of a family but that still doesn't give freedom of movement in other states.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Just to add to my post above, how does Article 6 of Directive 2004/38/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 29 April 2004 on the right of citizens of the Union and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States relate to this?:



Does this not provide a solution for couples where one is a third country national and the other is a (non resident?) EU citizen, so long as they don't wish to spend more than three months in any one country? (Additionally, I think that in this instance the clock can in theory be reset simply by leaving and returning the country in question.)

IMO unfortunately not ... those three months have nothing to do with the Schengen 90/180 rules, that is simply the time limit where an EU citizen must register their presence in the new country and possibly prove their ability to support themselves, pay for their healthcare etc if intending to stay longer. Their spouse will be able to travel with them (i.e. no Schengen Visa Application required - Visa Waiver), but I'm pretty sure this will effectively use up their 90/180 day quota in Schengen. Makes it easy for an EU citizen to bring a non-EU spouse with them for a 3 month visit in terms of paperwork, but doesn't nullify the 90/180 rule for the 3rd country partner AFAIK.

Basically both are there on a 90 day holiday, one with the requirement to register their presence if they stay longer, and the other on an automatic 90/180 Schengen Visa by virtue of being married to an EU citizen.

 

[25931]

Translating from Portuguese " The future belongs to god" , no one knows but I am prepared to bet that some countries will prove to be , in practice, rather more sympathetic than others whatever the kommissars say

 

[syvictoria]

What it's saying is that a non EU resident can be in an EU state for 3 months as part of a family but that still doesn't give freedom of movement in other states.

But surely, from a cruising perspective, my spouse then doesn't need FoM? I (EU citizen) 'move' to France and my TCN spouse accompanies me. After 89 days, I (EU citizen) 'move' to Belgium and my TCN spouse accompanies me. After 89 days, I (EU citizen) 'move' to the Netherlands and my TCN spouse accompanies me. And so on! No?

Edited to add: 'Move' as in clause 1 of Article 6, not actual residency.