Victoria 34 winged keel

MikeBz

MikeBz

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A few Victoria 34s were fitted with a shallower winged keel. Does anyone here have any experience of one of these (or know anyone that does)? I have emailed Chuck Paine who kindly replied - he had nothing to do with it. I have posted the question on the Victoria Shadow owners forum to no avail. Just wondering how they performed compared to the standard keel and whether there are any good/bad points.
 
I see what you mean, certainly an end plate rather than wing, a new one on me.

I have no experience with these, but obviously one can guess that as long as the ballast weight is the same it will be ' OK but nowhere near as good to windward '.

There is the added point that after a gale has set in for a few days the whole surface layer of the sea will have a ' surface drift ' to leeward, this layer is supposed to be around one metre deep so keels such as that pictured won't penetrate to get a grip on the more static water.
 
There is the added point that after a gale has set in for a few days the whole surface layer of the sea will have a ' surface drift ' to leeward, this layer is supposed to be around one metre deep so keels such as that pictured won't penetrate to get a grip on the more static water.
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Be aware that this is Seajets own opinion based on what a sailing instructor once said and is dismissed by scientific papers.
 
Twister_Ken said:
Be aware that this is Seajets own opinion based on what a sailing instructor once said and is dismissed by scientific papers.
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Balls.

It is what is said by a lot of very qualified sailing instructors who Twister Ken - and I for that matter - are not worthy to lick the boots of !

it's a matter of common sense if you think about it.

The only scientific paper referred to didn't ' dismiss ' the theory, just had a different one saying the influenced layer is thinner, not that it doesn't exist which in my and others ' opinion doesn't tally , and it was from someone I and most people had never heard of.

Think of it for yourself; after days of gales in one direction, do you think the sea surface might be influenced and set in that direction too ?
 
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Seajet said:
Balls.

Think of it for yourself; after days of gales in one direction, do you think the sea surface might be influenced and set in that direction too ?
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Round objects.

The sea surface, yes. A metre down, no. Half a metre down, no. A quarter of a metre down, no. A few mm down, a bit.

(go on, give me a peer-reviewed scientific reference and prove me wrong)
 
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Very interesting theory
So then the corollary of this is should I lift my 1.7m keel up to go downwind faster after a gale?

Providing the wind is blowing the same way.

Do you have a reference chart so that i can select how much to lift as surely a light gale i would have to lift more than a force 11.

Is it influenced by the fetch that the gale blew over or if there was 1000 miles of open ocean maybe I would not have to lift it at all?

Is it also time dependent so I would have to multiply the above 2 and factor time?

Do you have a graph?

I believe Kontiki was a major user of this downwind phenomena.
 
Twister_Ken said:
Round objects.

The sea surface, yes. A metre down, no. Half a metre down, no. A quarter of a metre down, no. A few mm down, a bit.

(go on, give me a peer-reviewed scientific reference and prove me wrong)
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I think i am with you on this one really Ken . I have just been experimenting with blowing down a straw into the surface of my drink. I was told to have more common sense by the missus so the results are now in my stomach!
 
Yes, that's what decades of researching hydrodynamics comes down to, the best evidence leads to a bloke blowing down a straw into a cup and smacked by his SWMBO who wants to get on with the tea...:)
 
Seajet said:
TSB240,

yes that's about right !

Twister Ken,

there are none so blind as those who will not see; have you none of that rare commodity misnamed as ' common ' sense ?! :rolleyes:
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Common sense used to maintain that the earth was flat; that disease came from bad air; that the sun would never set on the British Empire; that you caught a cold by getting cold; that you couldn't survive by drinking seawater; that the brussel sprout is an edible vegetable.

Many things are counter-intuitive.

Still waiting for your scientific justification.
 
I have no experience on the Victoria, however, in my opinion, the plate at the bottom of the keel, shown on the picture, does not perform any definite role apart from perhaps protecting the keel at shallow waters; home made modification?
 
TSB240 said:
I think i am with you on this one really Ken . I have just been experimenting with blowing down a straw into the surface of my drink. I was told to have more common sense by the missus so the results are now in my stomach!
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How hard were you blowing?

Just want to know whether this thread is developing into a storm in a tea cup, or merely a gale in a tea cup.
 
The 'winged' keel is 6" shallower so I doubt it's a home-made modification.

In this case I'm finding the thread drift/spat amusing. I have no knowledge of the subject in dispute but I do know that intuition is often very misleading in the scientific world.


CAPTAIN FANTASTIC said:
I have no experience on the Victoria, however, in my opinion, the plate at the bottom of the keel, shown on the picture, does not perform any definite role apart from perhaps protecting the keel at shallow waters; home made modification?
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richardabeattie said:
Why do so many threads degenerate into this sort of dogmatism and personal abuse?
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Dogmatism and prejudice is the nature of this and many Fora.

Personal abuse is not.

If there has been any you surely have a duty as a self appointed moderator to use the black warning triangle at the bottom left

Steve
 
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richardabeattie said:
Why do so many threads degenerate into this sort of dogmatism and personal abuse?
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The end plate effect is very well proven, as evidenced by modern airliners having ' winglets ' - before that a lot of high subsonic aircraft had ' wing fences ' - plates a few inches high to prevent the lifting slipstream from going off the wingtip, instead producing useful lift over the wing.

The same applies to boat keels, instead of getting blown to leeward the keel may get a grip on the water; rather than used as a cop-out for shallow draught, a deep keel with some sort of ' wings ' - even minor, as an end plate effect - is beneficial as exploited decades ago in racing such as the America's Cup at Fremantle.
 
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