Very annoyed Moose! nb

[No1_Moose]

I am writing this here because everybody here seems to have plenty of common sense (maybe I am wrong!)

I have been working in our School theatre since I joined the school 8 years ago. The Theatre has always been run by us, the pupils and has been very successfully. Myself and 6 other pupils have always managed the technical aspect of the Theatre and we have put on plays using professional equipment (moving lights e.t.c)
Now, there is a play in about 6 weeks so I went to see the Teacher in charge of this production to get a script so I can draw up a lighting design and hire the appropriate equipment. I was told that due to new health and safety regulations we would not be allowed to do anything,,,,at all!!! After going ahem, moderately mental at aforementioned teacher due to the fact that he had 3 weeks to tell me this and hadn't bothered I organized a meeting with Mr Headmaster. Mr HM was sympathetic to my argument but said there was nothing he could do apart from organize another meeting with nasty teacher and the Health and Safety goon. Nasty teacher and Health and Safety goon met in the theatre and had a good poke around (I bet they dont know that it is me who has neatly labeled every single wire in the whole building!!). As a result of their meeting the following rules have been imposed:
a) No pupil is allowed a key to the Theatre anymore
b) No pupil is allowed to plug anything in. This means that we are not allowed to plug a desk lamp in a 13A socket!!
c) No pupil is allowed in the building without an adult to supervise.
There are a few more but I won't mention them.

I feel this is so insulting, as these people know nothing about the technical side of the theatre (they don't know what 3-phase power is!).
Is the whole world like this? Where can I escape these rubbishy, pathetic little rules made up by idiotic do gooders that dont have a clue and are designed to prevent me taking even the slightest risk? (for goodness sake, the equipment is designed to be safe!)

Sorry about this but I am very very very annoyed!!!!

<hr width=100% size=1>I do understand if you wish to ignore me!!!

 

[ShipsWoofy]

Why don't you get your head of science and technology on your side.

If they, i.e. Your engineering or workshop head would offer to supervise you in the theatre then you may be able to carry on. The benefit being workshop teachers were a lot more fun and down to earth when I was in school, so you can still have a laugh.

Everyone in this country is frightened stiff of litigation and you have no certificates or 'proper' training. In the real world every job would have to be signed off by a foreman upon completion. This is life and when you start working you will see some apparently professional work that will chill you to the bone!

If it helps, I am an avionics engineer, I repair airborne radar, comms, navigation and missile systems, yet in work I have to call upon ground electrical if I need a plug fitted or a test set wired in.

It's life and your school is actually giving you a taster of what you are going to see outside, get used to it. To add some more realism, once you finish your exams they should call you to the office and lay you off!

If you did make a mistake and someone was injured a claims solicitor (vulture, ambulance chaser whatever) would crucify the school. The schools insurance company would do nothing.

I am not saying you are not competent, but ask your old fella, every job in a factory, ship, school etc. has to be completed by a tradesman. There is also the union problem, if you do this work, the electricians might walk out on strike.

Ah, I miss school!

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.topcatsail.co.uk>Woof</A>

 

[BrendanS]

<< yet in work I have to call upon ground electrical if I need a plug fitted or a test set wired in. >>
Sad, but very true, In an old job, used to take equipment from site to site, and always
got a sticker on it after on site electrician turned up. Was up for award of most stickered electronic equipment in the UK

<hr width=100% size=1>Me transmitte sursum, caledoni

 

[DepSol]

This only applies to people who are deemed not to have had the proper training to do the job. If it can be proved that you are capable of doing it then the insurers will allow it. Its just getting the thicky teachers to understand this and sort it out.

<hr width=100% size=1>Dom

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.soltron.co.uk>the website</A>

 

[tcm]

totally pathetic.

Anyway, my friggin car's been nicked today, also wife's handbag, so i'm in a bad mood too.

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[Peppermint]

Re: Your hammered

unless you are certificated by a recognized body.

The H&S twit will be qualified and it's more than his jobs worth to use common sense. The idiot teacher will be a "believer" in all of this bull.

It's the same every where these days. I had a guy sent away from a job the other day, So he'd driven for an hour, put many pounds in a meter, wasted an hour while a decision was made and driven an hour back, because a teenage girl, who'd been on a one hour course, decided that he couldn't carry 40kg up a flight of stairs. I billed them for £124 in lost time.


Simple jobs are now surrounded by Method Statements, Risk Assessments and regulations. A 10 minute job can require hours of paperwork.

Where can you get away from it? Well at present Her Majesty has her armed forces exempt from such things. Though I suspect they have their very own old cobblers to go through.

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[Marsupial]

Could not agree more. We have to have a drains up HSE enquirey to take part time degree students (they usually have a job) to their place of work to examine the information systems they work with when they're not at college. The risk assessment produced usually concludes that the proposition is too risky and should not be undertaken. The lecturers here decided to use the same assessment to demonstrate that it was TOO risky for us to leave home to travel by any means to work. The sad thing is the management took it seriously . . . . . .

My wife teaches in secondary school and there are murmerings that school swiming pools are to close because of unfavourable risks - swimming instructor + children + water = high risk. The argument that children who cannot swim + water is even more deadly has not impressed.

We dont prepare children for life - we just survive litigation.

Yes Moose we are fed up with nanny state, scared management and PC.


SAIL AWAY before its too late



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[tico]

HSE Twits

Having endured various HSE underling twits in the past, mind you it can be fun winding them up over their lack of knowledge, I now have dealings with a senior member of HSE's inspectors and have to report that this guy is the most reasonable and switched on inspector i have ever met. He has a practical understanding of the issues and can see things from the users point of view.
Wont tell you his name coz it would probably blight his career!!!!

<hr width=100% size=1>Been there, done that, got the oily T shirt

 

[lyc]

Sorry to hear that [sad]. Hope you get it all back soon and manage to string the culprit up.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BroadsandEastcoastBoating/>Broads & East Coast Boating</A>

 

[Planty]

Mate its about to get even worse, when Prescott puts his hand to the new "Part P" electrical regs (Jan 2005) there is a very good possiblity that it could be read to say that a HOMEOWNER cannot actually fit an electrical socket, appliance, light etc, in certain parts of his OWN HOME unless he is certified to do so!

Extract from guidance follows:
PART P BUILDING REGULATIONS:
"The Government intends, within the next few months it seems, to introduce legislation in the form of an additional section (Part P) to the Building Regulations which will state that any electrical installations must be carried out by a competent person. This is in line with the competency expected from gas installers and goes far beyond just knowing which colour wires do what.

Competency, in this case, will mean a full, qualified knowledge of electrical installations. It will mean you have the ability to thoroughly check a circuit for safety and you will be able to issue a minor works certificate as a self certified "competent person".

Electricity kills and injures many people every year. A great many of these people are dead or injured because they tried installations which they did not understand. The Government is also intending, it is believed, to introduce a scheme whereby domestic installations are checked at regular periods to make sure they comply, and also when a house is sold or purchased.

This would mean of course that if you had an installation which was not correctly certified, your house insurance may not be valid."

Now imagine trying to manage 400 odd Kitchen & Bathroom fitters when as yet we are only just now getting the invites to presentations "of the introduction for Part P" yet it all happens in Jan 2005. No confirmation of Training Bodies has been fortcoming apart from the usual ECA, IEE etc.

Upshot, get ready for a massive hike in tradesmens prices, really good "excuses" why things can't be done on time, more sharp intakes of breath. And all this whilst we endure the largest deficit in s trade skills this countries ever seen. Brilliant!!


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[Andrew_Fanner]

One wonders how this ludicrous state of affairs came into being, and how can it be stopped.

Who actually benefits?

After much badgering my son's school are now trying to set up a blanket permission letter so that they don't have to get written parental permission for every single little thing. What worried me is that this was seen as such a radical idea. I'm sure it was just assumed when I was at school that my parents wanted me to be there, and thus take part in activities, and that the school staff were in loco parentis with appropriate responsibilities, and rights.



<hr width=100% size=1>Two beers please, my friend is paying.

 

[Marsupial]

Planty

Seems like all we need to sell our houses and buy more boats before we all get micro managed to oblivion. . .

Special Note for all those nice people at CGHQ reading this stuff:

Yes thats right GCHQ I am very unhappy with the way you guys keep watching everything we do write and say, and how your lords and masters create petty rules and laws to keep us in check. The current regime you lot work for looks very similar to Germany in 1938; the night of the long knives is just around the corner.

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[steverow]

Yes I do feel sorry for you, after all the work that you must have put in.
Unfortunately some of the rules that you have mentioned will be common health and safety rules applied in Schools, particularly those with regard to supervision.
I feel that your institution is in reality just "catching up".
However this has more probably to do with litigation or the implied threat of litigation should anything nasty happen to you.
After all if you zapped yourself on a 15A stage plug, Moose would want to sue the School simply so he could afford to replace you as a crew member...otherwise it's going to be too costly.
This is really the name of the game these days.
Schools have a "duty of care" and now go to extaordinary lengths to uphold that.

Here at Warwick we have a properly supervised "stage crew" club if you like which is an organised and recognised activity.
We have two theatres on site plus a number of other venues for members to "play" with and train in.

If all else fails come and join us. We do boarding.

I have forwarded your post to Mr Cooper who runs this, he may comment back to you directly or through me.


Steve.

Technical Services Manager, Warwick School.

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[No1_Moose]

Re: Very annoyed Moose! nb *DELETED*

Post deleted by No1_Moose

 

[Bergman]

Well

At least you have been given a clear illustration of the problem.

Some years ago a rather obnoxious little oik told me I was not qualified to wire up a 3 pin plug ( I have a degree in electrical engineering). Fortunately a colleague grabbed me before I threw the prat out of the window.

Bet you must feel exactly the same.

My generation have somehow got us into this state, guess its up to your generation to do something about it.

Remember how angry you feel now when you get to make the decisions.

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[steverow]

Because most professional theatre lighting is still on the old 15A unfused plugs, with uninsulated pins. It is very possible to get your fingers across the pins and get a shock if the circuit is not isolated first.

Around our place this seems to have been taken as an over-reaction by your school possibly, although not on the supervision issue which is very valid.

As long as your Theatre equipment, lights etc, are regularly PAT tested (annually) and the wiring checked for Earth bonding and good RCD's are fitted (your insurance company will normally require this check 5 yearly), then there should really not be an issue with any pupil plugging in mains equipment in your theatre.

Before issuing edicts like this, your health and safety "goon", as you describe him,
should be properly qualified to do so. At a minimum he should hold the NEBOSH certificate and preferably the diploma. All too often institutions appoint a bod to look after H/S without any real knowledge. Not saying that this is the case with your School, but it might be worth an enquiry.

Possibly you should be looking for a freindly member of staff who would be willing to supervise you in the theatre, or ask the Headmaster to appoint one.

Er.. who is going to do the lighting then for your next production??


Best of Luck

Steve.



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[No1_Moose]

All the stuff is PAT tested (every 6 months). All the plugs have been refitted and are now insulated ones.

<hr width=100% size=1>I do understand if you wish to ignore me!!!

 

[whisper]

I'm another member of the generation that by default has allowed this over-regulated nanny state to develope in the UK. I apologise for this to you and your peers, Moose 1. There has to be some regulation of "dangerous" places of "work" but unfortunately the people who have to put this into place are often far less technically able than the people they are supervising.
When I was at school - strangely enough I had 11 happy years at Steve's establishment - I was part of the "Stage Staff" for about 4 years. No one ever got injured other than by tripping over something that one of their mates left lying about - sometimes on purpose. I also suspect that the equipment in those days was rather more dodgy than you now use.
If there was any doubt about electrical equipment one of the school handymen would check it out.
As others have said, you really need an ally among the staff to try and get common sense to prevail.
Good luck.

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[No1_Moose]

Oh yes, I forgot to say that the School Electrician thinks the whole thing is absurd! He has been around with me and came to the conclusion that there was nothing we should not do except go up ladders without a teacher present (fair enough, I don't mind that).

<hr width=100% size=1>I do understand if you wish to ignore me!!!

 

[tcm]

Re: If...

I'm afraid the sad fact is that you will increasingly realise that you are much brighter than most if not all people in authority. You may have already realised that many of your peers are also quite daft too. If not, it's cos you are at a school with lots of bright kids, but outside, you'l find that they are mostly dim.

Of course, the best thing would be to kill off all the dim people, or at least paint their faces blue and have them clean up the motorway verges, do free boat cleaning, or join the army to get shot cheaply. UNfortunately, altho extremely helpful, selctive killing at schools is not permitted, but it's worth checking local regulations.

Slightly less extreeme might be to call the press, tho it's only a story if there'll be no school play.

I agree that there's a high proprtion of non-daft people on the bb's.

One option is to keep your head down, and be your own boss as soon as feasibly possible. Unfortunately, this will eventually result in you buying a big boat and/or big car that will either break or get nicked due to the huge surplus of unkilled morons or scumbags who either make the poxy boats/cars and/or steal the good cars/boats, as i have repeatedly discovered.

So, another alternative is to quietly make some loot, enter politics, somehow seize power, and declare war on France, for a start. You'll note how france is a bit friendless at the moment - spanish aren't up for anything, nor germans, and the yanks might even help out. Make sure all the dimbos are send to the front line - on previous occasions we've had lots of brave or intelligent people doing the shooting, whereas people with manky feet or concientious objectors were left behind to procreate, so just send them off to the front line too, but tellem they don't need to shoot anyone.

This policy will eventually mean that the UK become a much more advanced country with a far greater concentration of clever people: note how all the decent cars are german (who declared war on france severel times in the past 200 years) and all the clever lecky stuff is japanese (who declared war on france and lots of other coutries too).

hope this helps

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