Verbal contract

[Mr Cassandra]

I have been negotiating with a yacht owner through a broker, on buying a yacht in Italy.
We agreed a price on the discriptions entered in their advert. This is supported by email and whatapp messages. It was also mentioned that I would need the vessel surveyed before money changed hands

I traveled from Athens to Marina Carrara Tuscany by ferry boat and my car.

On viewing the boat I noticed no autopilot although there was one offered in the advert. Otherwise everything was okay.
I walked away from the deal disappointed
This morning however I checked with the broker who said that the owner had said there was an autopilot in the advert and on the boat, but, the owner removed it this week.

Can I claim compensation for my travel cost as its obviously a breach of contract, if one existed.

Thanks

 

[nortada]

Verbal contract - not worth the paper it is not written on.

 

[bedouin]

Verbal contract - not worth the paper it is not written on.

And what does a non-verbal contract look like

But in answer to the OP - it was too early in the process for a contract to exist

 

[cherod]

i would not have thot that the cost of a removable AP would have been a deal swinger

 

[Mr Cassandra]

And what does a non-verbal contract look like

But in answer to the OP - it was too early in the process for a contract to exist

Why I have verbal offer and acceptance supported by emails and WhatsApp texts.
I would not have traveled to view the vessel if told previously that inportant item were to be removed.

The principle of Good Faith in Italian Contracts

• Italian law contains a general clause on good faith under article 1175 of the Italian Civil Code.
• Specific clauses on good faith in the phase of negotiations are set out under article 1337 of the Italian Civil Code, which states that the parties shall behave in good faith in the phase of the negotiations and the formation of the contract.
• Article 1375 of the Italian Civil Code states that the parties shall perform in good faith the obligations set out under a contract.
• This results, among others, in duties of: (i) disclosure; (ii) cooperation; and (iii) protection of the other party’s rights and goods.

Pre-Contractual liability

• s Parties shall carry out the negotiations for the entering into an agreement in good faith (article 1337 of the Italian Civil Code).
  • The interruption of the negotiations might entail a pre-contractual liability only upon the occurrence of the following two conditions:
    • In the meanwhile the counterpart has matured a reasonable expectation of the entering into the contract.
    • The interruption of the negotiations is completely unjustified.
  • Under pre-contractual liability, the damages that can be compensated only cover cost and expenses arising in connection with the negotiations and any loss of opportunity.
  • As previously seen, a contract can be considered formed and enforceable when an offer (containing all the essential content under article 1325 of the Italian Civil Code) is made by one party and is accepted by another one. The actual formation of a contract shall be determined on a case by case basis

 

[syvictoria]

Could you not simply renegotiate the price to take account of the removed autopilot?

 

[Mr Cassandra]

i would not have thot that the cost of a removable AP would have been a deal swinger

I would imagine that an Autopilot on a modern 47 footer would cost north of €3500.

 

[syvictoria]

Why I have verbal offer and acceptance supported by emails and WhatsApp texts.
I would not have traveled to view the vessel if told previously that inportant item were to be removed.

The principle of Good Faith in Italian Contracts

• Italian law contains a general clause on good faith under article 1175 of the Italian Civil Code.
• Specific clauses on good faith in the phase of negotiations are set out under article 1337 of the Italian Civil Code, which states that the parties shall behave in good faith in the phase of the negotiations and the formation of the contract.
• Article 1375 of the Italian Civil Code states that the parties shall perform in good faith the obligations set out under a contract.
• This results, among others, in duties of: (i) disclosure; (ii) cooperation; and (iii) protection of the other party’s rights and goods.

Pre-Contractual liability

• s Parties shall carry out the negotiations for the entering into an agreement in good faith (article 1337 of the Italian Civil Code).
  • The interruption of the negotiations might entail a pre-contractual liability only upon the occurrence of the following two conditions:
    • In the meanwhile the counterpart has matured a reasonable expectation of the entering into the contract.
    • The interruption of the negotiations is completely unjustified.
  • Under pre-contractual liability, the damages that can be compensated only cover cost and expenses arising in connection with the negotiations and any loss of opportunity.
  • As previously seen, a contract can be considered formed and enforceable when an offer (containing all the essential content under article 1325 of the Italian Civil Code) is made by one party and is accepted by another one. The actual formation of a contract shall be determined on a case by case basis

If you're looking for advice on Italian law, you may need to ask on an Italian forum.

 

[jordanbasset]

I would imagine that an Autopilot on a modern 47 footer would cost north of €3500.

Did you find out why he removed it, seems a strange thing to do

 

[bedouin]

Why I have verbal offer and acceptance supported by emails and WhatsApp texts.
I would not have traveled to view the vessel if told previously that inportant item were to be removed.

The principle of Good Faith in Italian Contracts

• Italian law contains a general clause on good faith under article 1175 of the Italian Civil Code.
• Specific clauses on good faith in the phase of negotiations are set out under article 1337 of the Italian Civil Code, which states that the parties shall behave in good faith in the phase of the negotiations and the formation of the contract.
• Article 1375 of the Italian Civil Code states that the parties shall perform in good faith the obligations set out under a contract.
• This results, among others, in duties of: (i) disclosure; (ii) cooperation; and (iii) protection of the other party’s rights and goods.

Pre-Contractual liability

• s Parties shall carry out the negotiations for the entering into an agreement in good faith (article 1337 of the Italian Civil Code).
  • The interruption of the negotiations might entail a pre-contractual liability only upon the occurrence of the following two conditions:
    • In the meanwhile the counterpart has matured a reasonable expectation of the entering into the contract.
    • The interruption of the negotiations is completely unjustified.
  • Under pre-contractual liability, the damages that can be compensated only cover cost and expenses arising in connection with the negotiations and any loss of opportunity.
  • As previously seen, a contract can be considered formed and enforceable when an offer (containing all the essential content under article 1325 of the Italian Civil Code) is made by one party and is accepted by another one. The actual formation of a contract shall be determined on a case by case basis

I would still say that there was not a contract - but there seems to be some possibility of damages under pre-contract liability - but I doubt if the removal of the auto pilot is sufficient to claim they were not acting in good faith as all you need to do is renegotiate the price to take account of it.

 

[nortada]

Why I have verbal offer and acceptance supported by emails and WhatsApp texts.
I would not have traveled to view the vessel if told previously that inportant item were to be removed.

The principle of Good Faith in Italian Contracts

• Italian law contains a general clause on good faith under article 1175 of the Italian Civil Code.
• Specific clauses on good faith in the phase of negotiations are set out under article 1337 of the Italian Civil Code, which states that the parties shall behave in good faith in the phase of the negotiations and the formation of the contract.
• Article 1375 of the Italian Civil Code states that the parties shall perform in good faith the obligations set out under a contract.
• This results, among others, in duties of: (i) disclosure; (ii) cooperation; and (iii) protection of the other party’s rights and goods.

Pre-Contractual liability

• s Parties shall carry out the negotiations for the entering into an agreement in good faith (article 1337 of the Italian Civil Code).
  • The interruption of the negotiations might entail a pre-contractual liability only upon the occurrence of the following two conditions:
    • In the meanwhile the counterpart has matured a reasonable expectation of the entering into the contract.
    • The interruption of the negotiations is completely unjustified.
  • Under pre-contractual liability, the damages that can be compensated only cover cost and expenses arising in connection with the negotiations and any loss of opportunity.
  • As previously seen, a contract can be considered formed and enforceable when an offer (containing all the essential content under article 1325 of the Italian Civil Code) is made by one party and is accepted by another one. The actual formation of a contract shall be determined on a case by case basis

Foul - rt knew the answer before he asked the question.

So are you going to sue

See you to have joined the dyslexics club - welcome on board.

 

[cherod]

I would imagine that an Autopilot on a modern 47 footer would cost north of €3500.

you might be right but you didnt make that clear ,,, still a fraction of the cost

 

[Mr Cassandra]

I would still say that there was not a contract - but there seems to be some possibility of damages under pre-contract liability - but I doubt if the removal of the auto pilot is sufficient to claim they were not acting in good faith as all you need to do is renegotiate the price to take account of it.

The broker says the owner will not lower the price. It would appear the its a new system installed 2019 and he removed it to put on another yacht.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

I would still say that there was not a contract - but there seems to be some possibility of damages under pre-contract liability - but I doubt if the removal of the auto pilot is sufficient to claim they were not acting in good faith as all you need to do is renegotiate the price to take account of it.

The broker says the owner will not lower the price. It would appear the its a new system installed 2019 and he removed it to put on

Foul - rt knew the answer before he asked the question.

So are you going to sue

See you to have joined the dyslexics club - welcome on board.

I wad dyslexic before it became fashionable.

 

[nortada]

I wad dyslexic before it became fashionable.

So a lead speller or bit of a magician

 

[Davy_S]

If you're looking for advice on Italian law, you may need to ask on an Italian forum.

It might be worth asking Metabarca from the mobo forum, he seems quite knowledgeable, plus he lives in Italy, just a thought.

 

[bedouin]

The broker says the owner will not lower the price. It would appear the its a new system installed 2019 and he removed it to put on another yacht.

Ouch - that does sound a bit steep.

As to whether a contract actually existed when you were looking over the boat did you think you were contractually obliged to buy the boat at the agreed price and if so why were you bothering to look over the boat in the first place? Normally a trip to look at a boat would be to determine whether to enter into the contract at all - or whether to negotiate on price.

If you argue that you had

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Ouch - that does sound a bit steep.

As to whether a contract actually existed when you were looking over the boat did you think you were contractually obliged to buy the boat at the agreed price and if so why were you bothering to look over the boat in the first place? Normally a trip to look at a boat would be to determine whether to enter into the contract at all - or whether to negotiate on price.

If you argue that you had

Deleted

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Ouch - that does sound a bit steep.

As to whether a contract actually existed when you were looking over the boat did you think you were contractually obliged to buy the boat at the agreed price and if so why were you bothering to look over the boat in the first place? Normally a trip to look at a boat would be to determine whether to enter into the contract at all - or whether to negotiate on price.

If you argue that you had

This is why I asked the question.
I have been in nogatiations for a couple of weeks the broker sent all the particulars and around fifty photographs. It was clearly stated that the vessel had an Autopilot.
We agreed a price subject to survey and me going to Italy for a visual look over the boat.
Unbeknown to the broker the owner removed the Autopilot this week.
There was little point in instructing a surveyor to carry ou a survey with a main navigational item removed.

I drove from Athens to Tuscany and my wife flew from Manchester to view the vessal
If I was told prior, I would not have taken the trouble to travel.
So I think (don't know) it's a fundamental part of the deal.

 

[bedouin]

This is why I asked the question.
I have been in nogatiations for a couple of weeks the broker sent all the particulars and around fifty photographs. It was clearly stated that the vessel had an Autopilot.
We agreed a price subject to survey and me going to Italy for a visual look over the boat.
Unbeknown to the broker the owner removed the Autopilot this week.
There was little point in instructing a surveyor to carry ou a survey with a main navigational item removed.

There's the rub "subject to" tends to imply the contract was not actually made. The usual boat buying process is that you agree a price "subject to" and once you have seen it / had the survey the final contract it made. I think you would have to rely on the "pre contract liability" you highlighted above. However I know nothing at all about Italian law so my opinion is worth nothing at all.