VAT status on 1981 boat bought in UK but registered in Ireland - no 1992 proof

[alaska7]

I am a first time buyer looking at buying a yacht in the UK through a broker. The boat is registered in Ireland and was built in 1981. The owner has a bill of sale from the French shipyard although it doesn't seem to show any VAT or Tax.. There is no documentary evidence of it being in the EU on the 31st Dec 1992 although I am assured that it was.
Can I ask for advice from the more experienced on here? I have done quite a bit of homework on this but some questions remain.
From a VAT standpoint is it enough that the bill of sales shows the date of sale as 1981 or do i also need to have mooring receipts etc for the 1992 date??
How serious is this?
Is there any reason why buying a Irish registered boat in the UK would pose any problems?

If there is VAT due does the broker charge this at the point of sale or is it collected afterwards? If so what is the process?
Any tips would be much appreciated!

 

[Tranona]

There is no way you will have to pay VAT if you are buying from a private individual, even if through a broker. VAT is only payable if there is a chargeable event, which for an old boat is only likely to be if you import from outside the EU.

From what you say the boat is "deemed VAT paid" under the transition rules. Although you have no hard evidence that it was in the EU on the qualifying dates it is highly unlikely that there would be any questions asked. The boat is no different in this respect from thousands of other older boats. There is an outside chance you might have hassle if you took it abroad, but again unlikely that there would be any negative consequences.

 

[Eyore]

I have twice sold Irish registered boats to UK owners and they had no subsequent problems.

 

[Finbar]

There is no Small Ships Register in Ireland, so the registration process for a yacht is the same as for a merchant ship, and is managed by the Revenue Commissioners. If the yacht is really registered here you can take it that ownership has been traced from build to present owner, any mortgages are registered and VAT has been accounted for. On the other hand if the boat has Irish Sailing Association registration all you can say is that it has a number and the owner paid them €15.
A fully registered yacht will have a formal registration certificate, and a plate showing the registration number and registered tonnage mounted in a prominent place. The port of registration will also be marked on the transom.

 

[Tranona]

There is no Small Ships Register in Ireland, so the registration process for a yacht is the same as for a merchant ship, and is managed by the Revenue Commissioners. If the yacht is really registered here you can take it that ownership has been traced from build to present owner, any mortgages are registered and VAT has been accounted for. On the other hand if the boat has Irish Sailing Association registration all you can say is that it has a number and the owner paid them €15.
A fully registered yacht will have a formal registration certificate, and a plate showing the registration number and registered tonnage mounted in a prominent place. The port of registration will also be marked on the transom.

The Irish Sailing Association registration is the equivalent of the UK SSR. Full registration in Ireland is equivalent to Part 1 on the UK register. Neither have anything to do with VAT payment, which is what the OP is asking about.

 

[Pladdatoo]

The Irish Sailing Association registration is the equivalent of the UK SSR. Full registration in Ireland is equivalent to Part 1 on the UK register. Neither have anything to do with VAT payment, which is what the OP is asking about.

Called, I believe the Small Craft Register - but I might be mistaken

 

[lpdsn]

The Irish Sailing Association registration is the equivalent of the UK SSR. Full registration in Ireland is equivalent to Part 1 on the UK register. Neither have anything to do with VAT payment, which is what the OP is asking about.

The SCR is nowhere near as sophisticated or bureaucratic as the SSR.

 

[Tranona]

The SCR is nowhere near as sophisticated or bureaucratic as the SSR.

Nothing sophisticated about the SSR. Fill in a form, pay your £25 and you get a little ticket that says the boat named on it is a British ship. Satisfies foreign officials, but has no meaning otherwise.

 

[Finbar]

Its not possible to register a boat with the Revenue Commissioners in Ireland without proof of VAT payment. D'ont ask me how I know!

 

[alaska7]

Thank you for the replies guys. Yes she has a number beginning SCR IE ####### - so it would seem she is on the Small Craft Register.
In a situation where VAT may be due because the boat has at some point been bought and sold outside the EU who is responsible for paying it? The person who first imports it to the EU or whoever owns the boat when the tax man comes knocking?

 

[Finbar]

Just for info, the Irish system has been changed. The ISA no longer offer the SCR and the Mercantile Marine office now operate the Irish Ships Register:

The Irish Register of Shipping provides state registration for all Irish vessels including recreational craft. It is accessed through the Mercantile Marine Office in the Department of Transport. The registration process includes affirmation of ownership, tax status and a survey of the vessel. Inclusion on this register provides full entitlements for vessels cruisng outside of The Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland and United Kingdom and associated territorial waters as set out in the Mercantile Marine Act 1955

I bought a boat in Holland owned by a German National, and had to obtain proof of VAT paid from Dutch Customs to avoid a VAT assessment in Ireland.

 

[Tranona]

Thank you for the replies guys. Yes she has a number beginning SCR IE ####### - so it would seem she is on the Small Craft Register.
In a situation where VAT may be due because the boat has at some point been bought and sold outside the EU who is responsible for paying it? The person who first imports it to the EU or whoever owns the boat when the tax man comes knocking?

The person who is responsible for importing it, not the current owner, although customs could have a charge over the boat, but that would mean going to court with a good case.

The "rules" about boats leaving the EU and returning are complex and there are a number of reliefs available depending on the owner's circumstances. As there is no reliable way of tracing where a boat goes, the most likely event that triggers of interest is if the boats changes hands outside the EU, in which case most of the reliefs cannot be used. So you have to look at the ownership history of the individual boat. It is the Bill of Sale that is the most important document, but that is only an indicator of where the transaction took place rather than proof, unless there is third party evidence. For example, it is common for EU boats based in Turkey to sail to Greece and have evidence the boat was in Greece plus have the bill of Sale notarised in Greece. Just an example - a good broker should do this work for you and at least advise you if there are doubts about the provenance of the boat.

 

[alaska7]

The person who is responsible for importing it, not the current owner, although customs could have a charge over the boat, but that would mean going to court with a good case.

The "rules" about boats leaving the EU and returning are complex and there are a number of reliefs available depending on the owner's circumstances. As there is no reliable way of tracing where a boat goes, the most likely event that triggers of interest is if the boats changes hands outside the EU, in which case most of the reliefs cannot be used. So you have to look at the ownership history of the individual boat. It is the Bill of Sale that is the most important document, but that is only an indicator of where the transaction took place rather than proof, unless there is third party evidence. For example, it is common for EU boats based in Turkey to sail to Greece and have evidence the boat was in Greece plus have the bill of Sale notarised in Greece. Just an example - a good broker should do this work for you and at least advise you if there are doubts about the provenance of the boat.

cheers