David_Jersey
Well-Known Member
Done a lot of reading and searching – lots of useful info on this site – including the links to the RYA and HM Revenue & Customs.
But basically it’s told me what I suspected already that things are not exactly straightforward! And for UK boats there is nothing that is 100% conclusive proof – that is guaranteed to be 1,000,000% acceptable to our continental cousins.
My story and questions!
I am a Jersey resident (ie non EU for VAT purposes) with absolutely no UK connections (ie a local yokel!).
I am about to buy a boat in the UK (contract exchanged, Survey to follow), because there is nothing here that I like.
Normally the only reason I would have to “worry” about VAT would be if I wanted to sell her back in the UK – but in my case the plan is that after a few years of being in Jersey (and outside the EU) she goes back to the EU whilst I live on her down in the Med somewhere – therefore she will need to be “sorted” on the VAT .
(Just FYI, a Jersey resident with a non vat paid boat is allowed to keep her in the EU for only a continuous period of up six months without having to pay VAT – she can however leave the EU and then come straight back – so I am not worried about my summer holidays in northern France for the next few years)
As the boat in question was built in 1970 her paperwork is not perfect (nothing unusual with that) and I am basically having to “take a view” on certain things as well as trying to pre-empt VAT problems later.
She is fortunately part 1 registered (in Southampton) and I am viewing her old style “blue book” as my proof of when (1970 and therefore pre UK VAT) and where (UK) she was built and that she was sold to her first owner within the UK. To me this should be good evidence (although not 100% proof) to any foreign VAT man that the boat complied with the relevant UK VAT requirements at the time she was both built and then sold within the UK (ie firstly there weren’t any UK VAT requirements and that secondly in any case it was all a UK matter).
I appreciate that obviously the first owner could have had her delivered to and then kept her in Timbucktoo for all I know and still had her registered to his address in the UK, but I am going to view this “as good as I am ever going to get” evidence of how she started life and also evidence that she was built pre 1985. The Builders Certificate would have been nice as well, but I believe that this would have been at least shown to the Registrar of British Shipping as part of her part 1 registration, so I am not too bothered about not having it.
I then get onto the trickier question of whether she has lost her VAT paid status (or more precisely how do I PROVE to some VAT Man in a foreign port she has not lost her VAT paid status)
She has been registered to owners in the UK since new (but of course this does not “prove” she was in the UK during all this time), however as she has had a couple of owners in the last few years unsurprisingly she does not come with any paper work to prove where she has been for every year since 1970! In addition she does not have any paper work to show that she was definitely in the UK on 31 Dec 1992 and has remained in the UK since, up to date. However whilst I would like to have some paperwork on this (ie invoices and receipts for mooring bills etc) I do find it hard to get my head around that any VAT man on the continent is going to look at a pile of invoices which could have been easily produced by the average 12 year old on a PC and automatically say “that’s conclusive proof for me of her VAT paid status sir – be on your way”.
I am sure some folk will say the sensible thing is go and buy something WITH the paperwork, but I am not going to!
My “plan” is fivefold:-
1) Keep her registered in Southampton, so that an English Port is clearly visible on her to try and keep the foreign customs from easily identifying her as having a “Jersey (non EU) Connection”.
2) Buy her using UK registered company so that the bill of sale is between two UK based “Persons” and that she will still be registered with the name and address of a UK based person, SHOULD (but no guarantees) mean that for the foreign customs people any VAT question is solely the responsibility of the UK Customs (who I will never see).
3) Her being Part 1 registered should “show” that she was built in England, was registered in England, was first sold in England and has been ever since always sold to English based “Persons” – with no connection (apart from me) to any non EU place called Jersey.
4) As I will be using her in Northern France over the next few years for trips of a few days to a few months I am 99% sure that I will get a visit from the French Customs I can test my approach with them knowing that as I will still be within my 6 month limit of being in the EU even if they do not accept her VAT paid status then at least I should not get a VAT bill on the spot.
5) If all else fails – pay the damned VAT (again!) before (if??!!) I take her down to the Med!
Sorry this is so long winded – but if anyone has any comments on my “Plan” or has any other suggestions please let me know – will post again once I have had my first “contact” with the French Customs!
There WAS also a “Plan” to find a 12 year old with a PC…………… to include letters from the Queen, Tony Blair and the Pope confirming her VAT paid status….. but I will keep this one in reserve.
David
But basically it’s told me what I suspected already that things are not exactly straightforward! And for UK boats there is nothing that is 100% conclusive proof – that is guaranteed to be 1,000,000% acceptable to our continental cousins.
My story and questions!
I am a Jersey resident (ie non EU for VAT purposes) with absolutely no UK connections (ie a local yokel!).
I am about to buy a boat in the UK (contract exchanged, Survey to follow), because there is nothing here that I like.
Normally the only reason I would have to “worry” about VAT would be if I wanted to sell her back in the UK – but in my case the plan is that after a few years of being in Jersey (and outside the EU) she goes back to the EU whilst I live on her down in the Med somewhere – therefore she will need to be “sorted” on the VAT .
(Just FYI, a Jersey resident with a non vat paid boat is allowed to keep her in the EU for only a continuous period of up six months without having to pay VAT – she can however leave the EU and then come straight back – so I am not worried about my summer holidays in northern France for the next few years)
As the boat in question was built in 1970 her paperwork is not perfect (nothing unusual with that) and I am basically having to “take a view” on certain things as well as trying to pre-empt VAT problems later.
She is fortunately part 1 registered (in Southampton) and I am viewing her old style “blue book” as my proof of when (1970 and therefore pre UK VAT) and where (UK) she was built and that she was sold to her first owner within the UK. To me this should be good evidence (although not 100% proof) to any foreign VAT man that the boat complied with the relevant UK VAT requirements at the time she was both built and then sold within the UK (ie firstly there weren’t any UK VAT requirements and that secondly in any case it was all a UK matter).
I appreciate that obviously the first owner could have had her delivered to and then kept her in Timbucktoo for all I know and still had her registered to his address in the UK, but I am going to view this “as good as I am ever going to get” evidence of how she started life and also evidence that she was built pre 1985. The Builders Certificate would have been nice as well, but I believe that this would have been at least shown to the Registrar of British Shipping as part of her part 1 registration, so I am not too bothered about not having it.
I then get onto the trickier question of whether she has lost her VAT paid status (or more precisely how do I PROVE to some VAT Man in a foreign port she has not lost her VAT paid status)
She has been registered to owners in the UK since new (but of course this does not “prove” she was in the UK during all this time), however as she has had a couple of owners in the last few years unsurprisingly she does not come with any paper work to prove where she has been for every year since 1970! In addition she does not have any paper work to show that she was definitely in the UK on 31 Dec 1992 and has remained in the UK since, up to date. However whilst I would like to have some paperwork on this (ie invoices and receipts for mooring bills etc) I do find it hard to get my head around that any VAT man on the continent is going to look at a pile of invoices which could have been easily produced by the average 12 year old on a PC and automatically say “that’s conclusive proof for me of her VAT paid status sir – be on your way”.
I am sure some folk will say the sensible thing is go and buy something WITH the paperwork, but I am not going to!
My “plan” is fivefold:-
1) Keep her registered in Southampton, so that an English Port is clearly visible on her to try and keep the foreign customs from easily identifying her as having a “Jersey (non EU) Connection”.
2) Buy her using UK registered company so that the bill of sale is between two UK based “Persons” and that she will still be registered with the name and address of a UK based person, SHOULD (but no guarantees) mean that for the foreign customs people any VAT question is solely the responsibility of the UK Customs (who I will never see).
3) Her being Part 1 registered should “show” that she was built in England, was registered in England, was first sold in England and has been ever since always sold to English based “Persons” – with no connection (apart from me) to any non EU place called Jersey.
4) As I will be using her in Northern France over the next few years for trips of a few days to a few months I am 99% sure that I will get a visit from the French Customs I can test my approach with them knowing that as I will still be within my 6 month limit of being in the EU even if they do not accept her VAT paid status then at least I should not get a VAT bill on the spot.
5) If all else fails – pay the damned VAT (again!) before (if??!!) I take her down to the Med!
Sorry this is so long winded – but if anyone has any comments on my “Plan” or has any other suggestions please let me know – will post again once I have had my first “contact” with the French Customs!
There WAS also a “Plan” to find a 12 year old with a PC…………… to include letters from the Queen, Tony Blair and the Pope confirming her VAT paid status….. but I will keep this one in reserve.
David
