Honey
Well-Known Member
I am going to view a 1985 British flaged and registered boat for sale in Turkey which is described by the broker as "VAT exempt due to her age". Would this be correct? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
VAT exempt
- Thread starter Honey
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exfinnsailor
Well-Known Member
Its a MINE FIELD Check Here /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
Honey
Well-Known Member
Thanks for that ex_finn_sailor. I think I will need to do some serious research.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Unlikely. It is outside the EU. It can only come back into the EU with Vat paid status if Vat was indeed paid and it was brought back in by the person who took it out. It loses its status once it changes hands outside the EU.
So if you want to bring it back you have to pay VAT. You may also have to get it CE marked and comply with the RCD unless it was built in the EU (strictly the EEA) prior to 1998 and you can demonstrate that it was in use within the EU prior to that date.
All information of a general nature showing what the rules are is on the RYA website.
The flag and registration is irrelevant as that depends on the resident status of the owner and is unconnected with VAT or RCD.
So if you want to bring it back you have to pay VAT. You may also have to get it CE marked and comply with the RCD unless it was built in the EU (strictly the EEA) prior to 1998 and you can demonstrate that it was in use within the EU prior to that date.
All information of a general nature showing what the rules are is on the RYA website.
The flag and registration is irrelevant as that depends on the resident status of the owner and is unconnected with VAT or RCD.
bobgoode
Well-Known Member
Vat was introduced in 1973 and so a vessel built before then would be VAT exempt...pity it was built 12 years too late
kingfisher
Well-Known Member
The boat is probably RCD excempt, as Turkey implemented the RCD a few months ago (see my previous post). It means that the boat was already on the market before the transitional period.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
But that does not mean that a boat built in 1985 is RCD compliant! Compliance is individual to the boat and has to be certificated.
I would imagine that the Turkish legislation only applies to new boats sold "entering into service" to use the EU jargon, after a certain date. As in the EU it would not be retrospective.
As a general point, one of the reasons why some boats appear cheap in places like Turkey and the US or Caribbean is because they cannot easily be used in the EU, so this limits their market. On the other hand if the intention is to keep the boat permanently outside the EU then there are bargains to be had.
I would imagine that the Turkish legislation only applies to new boats sold "entering into service" to use the EU jargon, after a certain date. As in the EU it would not be retrospective.
As a general point, one of the reasons why some boats appear cheap in places like Turkey and the US or Caribbean is because they cannot easily be used in the EU, so this limits their market. On the other hand if the intention is to keep the boat permanently outside the EU then there are bargains to be had.
saltwater_gypsy
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It sounds as if the VAT is not paid and the simplest thing is to nip across to Rhodes, get a low boat valuation from a friendly local surveyor and cough up the VAT to the Greek Customs.
Alternatively you may not bother with VAT and happily cruise the Med but go back to a non-EU country every 18months or so .(but check the current allowed time in EU waters)
OR you can sail off into the sunset and leave the EU for an extended period.
I have a 1982 boat and have never been asked about VAT status , even by the French! There was a post about this some time ago and nobody with an old boat had ever been asked for VAT documentation
RCD is a separate issue which can get quite complicated quite quickly but is only a big issue if you wish to charter!!
Alternatively you may not bother with VAT and happily cruise the Med but go back to a non-EU country every 18months or so .(but check the current allowed time in EU waters)
OR you can sail off into the sunset and leave the EU for an extended period.
I have a 1982 boat and have never been asked about VAT status , even by the French! There was a post about this some time ago and nobody with an old boat had ever been asked for VAT documentation
RCD is a separate issue which can get quite complicated quite quickly but is only a big issue if you wish to charter!!
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Why is it only a big issue if you charter? There is no differentiation in the EU. Every boat has to comply if it first came into service after the 1998 date.
Be clear - you canbring a boat into the EU and get it certified as CategoryD to make it legal but you may have difficulty selling it as a buyer would be expecting a higher category.
Not sure about whether you would get a good VAT deal in Greece - and they would also want to see an RCD certification - in theory.
It is the potential sanctions under the legislation that put people off avoiding it.
Be clear - you canbring a boat into the EU and get it certified as CategoryD to make it legal but you may have difficulty selling it as a buyer would be expecting a higher category.
Not sure about whether you would get a good VAT deal in Greece - and they would also want to see an RCD certification - in theory.
It is the potential sanctions under the legislation that put people off avoiding it.
Boat44
Well-Known Member
Never heard of "VAT exempt due to her age".
I would suspect something has been lost in the translation!!!
Would very strongly ensure you know exactly the VAT position before you spend any sort of serious money.
I would suspect something has been lost in the translation!!!
Would very strongly ensure you know exactly the VAT position before you spend any sort of serious money.
kingfisher
Well-Known Member
RCD and Turkey
OK, here we go for the full argument.
The boat is RCD exempt if it has been placed on the EU market before 1998. So first check if it has been sold in the EU before that date.
If it was constructed in Turkey, launched in Turkey, sold to the owner in Turkey and the administratively flagged in the UK, the following applies:
The pre-1998 date applies to the boats in the "old" Member States. This cut-off date is different for the newer Member States, as their accession post dates the RCD. IN that case, you will have to look at each new Member States transitional date (in some countries all the directives entered into force on the date of their accession, others had pre-accession protocols, or PECA's)
Turkey implemented the RCD through “Recreational Craft Regulation”, which was published in the Offical Gazette (Resmi Gazet), dated 02 April 2002, No. 24174, and entered into force on 01 June 2005. Any boat on the Turkish market before that time is considered placed on the market, and therefore does not need to comply with the RCD.
An addendum to the TR-EU customs agreement installed a mutual recognition of CE-marked products as well as notified bodies. A Turkish CE-mark therefor has the same value as an EU CE-mark. Boats placed on the market in Turkey before 1 June 2005 need no CE-mark in the EU.
I don't expect a HM customs official to know about the nuance here, but he is supposed to. Get ready to do some explaining.
www.abgs.gov.tr/tarama/tarama_files/01/SC01DET_recrational%20craft.pdf
OK, here we go for the full argument.
The boat is RCD exempt if it has been placed on the EU market before 1998. So first check if it has been sold in the EU before that date.
If it was constructed in Turkey, launched in Turkey, sold to the owner in Turkey and the administratively flagged in the UK, the following applies:
The pre-1998 date applies to the boats in the "old" Member States. This cut-off date is different for the newer Member States, as their accession post dates the RCD. IN that case, you will have to look at each new Member States transitional date (in some countries all the directives entered into force on the date of their accession, others had pre-accession protocols, or PECA's)
Turkey implemented the RCD through “Recreational Craft Regulation”, which was published in the Offical Gazette (Resmi Gazet), dated 02 April 2002, No. 24174, and entered into force on 01 June 2005. Any boat on the Turkish market before that time is considered placed on the market, and therefore does not need to comply with the RCD.
An addendum to the TR-EU customs agreement installed a mutual recognition of CE-marked products as well as notified bodies. A Turkish CE-mark therefor has the same value as an EU CE-mark. Boats placed on the market in Turkey before 1 June 2005 need no CE-mark in the EU.
I don't expect a HM customs official to know about the nuance here, but he is supposed to. Get ready to do some explaining.
www.abgs.gov.tr/tarama/tarama_files/01/SC01DET_recrational%20craft.pdf
saltwater_gypsy
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Re: RCD and Turkey
MASTERLY EXPOSITION!!!!!!
MASTERLY EXPOSITION!!!!!!
matelot
Well-Known Member
boats bought outside the EU carry vat on entry even if they have previously had vat paid and not reclaimed before export - as I understand the system.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Re: RCD and Turkey
Thanks for the explanation. However, this would only apply (potentially) to a very small numbers of boats if being on the Turkish market is defined as having been sold in that market. Many boats have ended up there by being sailed from other countries. Would they be considered as being exempt simply by being moored in Turkey before 2005?
Presumably for more recent EU built boats (ie post 1998) RCD would be less of a problem as, even if the individual boat did not have a CE mark, the information required would be readily available from the builder.
However, the OP was talking about a 1985 boat, which would be RCD exempt if he could show that it was in use in the EU prior to 1998 (as was a boat imported from the USA as described in this month's PBO). But if it was exported from the EU from new it may not be. If it went to Turkey in 1985 seems it would hinge on how "placed on the market" is defined.
Any thoughts on this?
Thanks for the explanation. However, this would only apply (potentially) to a very small numbers of boats if being on the Turkish market is defined as having been sold in that market. Many boats have ended up there by being sailed from other countries. Would they be considered as being exempt simply by being moored in Turkey before 2005?
Presumably for more recent EU built boats (ie post 1998) RCD would be less of a problem as, even if the individual boat did not have a CE mark, the information required would be readily available from the builder.
However, the OP was talking about a 1985 boat, which would be RCD exempt if he could show that it was in use in the EU prior to 1998 (as was a boat imported from the USA as described in this month's PBO). But if it was exported from the EU from new it may not be. If it went to Turkey in 1985 seems it would hinge on how "placed on the market" is defined.
Any thoughts on this?
jb2008
Well-Known Member
Re: RCD and Turkey
[ QUOTE ]
Would they be considered as being exempt simply by being moored in Turkey before 2005?
[/ QUOTE ]
Isn't the phrasing of the RCD stuff usually "put into service" rather than put on the market? So yes, it would.
These allowances are there so that people who have been merrily using their boat in Turkey for years don't suddenly have to get it specially certified.
If the boat can be shown to have been "put into service" in Turkey before the cut off date, it should be RCD OK. The VAT situation is best solved by the owner popping back into the EU and conducting the sale in Greece.
This whole discussion is a prime example of just how bad the RCD legislation is. Classic French protectionism at its worst.
[ QUOTE ]
Would they be considered as being exempt simply by being moored in Turkey before 2005?
[/ QUOTE ]
Isn't the phrasing of the RCD stuff usually "put into service" rather than put on the market? So yes, it would.
These allowances are there so that people who have been merrily using their boat in Turkey for years don't suddenly have to get it specially certified.
If the boat can be shown to have been "put into service" in Turkey before the cut off date, it should be RCD OK. The VAT situation is best solved by the owner popping back into the EU and conducting the sale in Greece.
This whole discussion is a prime example of just how bad the RCD legislation is. Classic French protectionism at its worst.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Re: RCD and Turkey
No, as you will see from Kingfishers post the term used is "placed on the market" which implies being the result of a transaction rather than just simply being there. That is why I am asking him - as he seems to be more expert - for clarification.
Don't think for one minute that any "exemption" is designed to make life easier for a consumer - merely reflects the impracticality of retrospective certification that even our idiotic masters recognised.
No, as you will see from Kingfishers post the term used is "placed on the market" which implies being the result of a transaction rather than just simply being there. That is why I am asking him - as he seems to be more expert - for clarification.
Don't think for one minute that any "exemption" is designed to make life easier for a consumer - merely reflects the impracticality of retrospective certification that even our idiotic masters recognised.
Honey
Well-Known Member
This is doing my poor little brain cell in!
The boat (a bene) was sailed out to Turkey from the UK and, due to a change of circumstances is now for sale. As A 1985 boat I assume that it is not "VAT exempt!" or "deemed VAT paid"as I believe it should be called.
The question of RCD does not arise due to age??
If the owner, who is English and resides here, sells the boat to me, also English and residing here, in Sterling through a Broker with offices in the UK and Turkey, whilst the boat is in Turkey, was the sale in Turkey or the UK?
The boat (a bene) was sailed out to Turkey from the UK and, due to a change of circumstances is now for sale. As A 1985 boat I assume that it is not "VAT exempt!" or "deemed VAT paid"as I believe it should be called.
The question of RCD does not arise due to age??
If the owner, who is English and resides here, sells the boat to me, also English and residing here, in Sterling through a Broker with offices in the UK and Turkey, whilst the boat is in Turkey, was the sale in Turkey or the UK?
pmyatt
Well-Known Member
If a VAT paid boat changes hands outside the EU, VAT becomes due again if it re-enters the EU.
PeterGibbs
Well-Known Member
quote:If a VAT paid boat changes hands outside the EU, VAT becomes due again if it re-enters the EU.
________________________________
I must tell you this is not so. On challenge, the VAT situation would entirely depend on the trail of receipts. There is no VAT on trading a boat privately, inside or outside the EU.
In practice, there is much talk that amounts to scare mongering over the VAT regulations. An evidently older boat belonging to an EU national will not attract the attention of the authorities. Why should it?
Some would-be purchasers might cut up if the paper trail were not in apple pie order, but it is not worth offering to pay VAT twice / have the boat CD marked (very expensive) just to satisfy this section of the market.
PWG
________________________________
I must tell you this is not so. On challenge, the VAT situation would entirely depend on the trail of receipts. There is no VAT on trading a boat privately, inside or outside the EU.
In practice, there is much talk that amounts to scare mongering over the VAT regulations. An evidently older boat belonging to an EU national will not attract the attention of the authorities. Why should it?
Some would-be purchasers might cut up if the paper trail were not in apple pie order, but it is not worth offering to pay VAT twice / have the boat CD marked (very expensive) just to satisfy this section of the market.
PWG
Tranona
Well-Known Member
If the original owner paid VAT on it then he can probably bring it back into the EU and maintain its VAT paid status. If VAT was never paid on it then both the existing owner or you, if you buy it will have to pay VAT on it.
If it was in the EU legitimately prior to 1998 you may be exempt from the requirements of the RCD, just as all the other boats in the EU were. It may, depending on the definition of placed on the market, see my query to Kingfisher gain its exemption from the RCD through being in Turkey in 2005.
It is not relevant where you or the owner are, only where the boat is.
Messy, but perhaps the broker has experience of a similar transaction and can advise.
If it was in the EU legitimately prior to 1998 you may be exempt from the requirements of the RCD, just as all the other boats in the EU were. It may, depending on the definition of placed on the market, see my query to Kingfisher gain its exemption from the RCD through being in Turkey in 2005.
It is not relevant where you or the owner are, only where the boat is.
Messy, but perhaps the broker has experience of a similar transaction and can advise.
