Use of engine due to lateness getting to start line.

[TallBuoy]

RRS apply from the Prep signal, usually at 4 minutes before the start, preventing use of engines from that time.

So what if somebody has not arrived at the start area, due to technical problems which take some time to resolve, then motor from their base eg a marina, to the start line and cross very much later than the fleet.

Should they:
- be ruled Did Not Start (if the race committee happen to spot them)
- Retire without starting, go home early.
- complete the course, and not declare their finish, effectively retiring.
- await a protest from other competitors.

Anything other than the above?

 

[dunedin]

Formally and for any serious event it is retire without starting, go home early. Be better prepared next time.

For informal club and pub racing, just for the fun, then if it it is a nice day perhaps sail the course, keeping out of others way, but pass outside, or stop before, the finishing line.
If the race has a declaration process (or indeed has a protest committee) then it is formal so the first approach applies

 

[lpdsn]

I'm afraid formally the only option is to retire if you'd been counted as started as you've broken a rule that has no option to take a penalty.

In fact if retiring scores you better series points than DNC or DNS it would be best to own up to that too, as it's technically a breach of the fair sailing rule.

I know it sounds a bit unfair in the case you describe but it's the way it is.

Of course if it's not serious racing just own up and see what they say.

 

[bbg]

If they want to race, they turn off the engine 4 minutes before the start (regardless of where they are, physically) and sail to the start line. If the engine is on after that, they don't start the race.
Simple.

 

[Keen_Ed]

SPORTSMANSHIP AND THE RULES
Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce. A fundamental principle of sportsmanship is that when competitors break a rule they will promptly take a penalty, which may be to retire.

They should retire. Better not to cross the start line. Make it obvious. Presumably they entered, so they need to retire.
Nothing to stop them sticking up an ensign and going for a sail, though.

 

[Foolish Muse]

Funny story. Years ago in a singlehanded race in Vancouver, I was not at all familiar with the huge flood tide that added 3/4 hour to my trip to the start line. So I motored a lot and arrived very late. They let me start and by this time all the other boats were completely out of sight. This is a 4-5 hour race across the straight. The fastest boat turned and, as often happens, all the other boats followed him. They all got caught in the current. Because I couldn't see the boats at all, I took a completely different route and ended up first across the line, even with my late start.

 

[awol]

Most of the races I take part in include in the sailing instructions motoring after 4 minute provided a 720 turn is taken after engine off and no interference with other boats. They also usually reduce the 2 turns after foul to 1.

 

[flaming]

Most of the races I take part in include in the sailing instructions motoring after 4 minute provided a 720 turn is taken after engine off and no interference with other boats. They also usually reduce the 2 turns after foul to 1.

This is quite common. And except at "championship" level entirely appropriate in my view. Participation in sailing is falling, so we should be encouraging people to take part, not excluding them because they were a few minutes late.

 

[lw395]

Some races 'bend the rules' to allow late arrivals to race.
That's appropriate for a friday night cross channel or something where people can be unavoidably delayed.
It would not be right to let people manipulate this in any way.

 

[flaming]

Some races 'bend the rules' to allow late arrivals to race.
That's appropriate for a friday night cross channel or something where people can be unavoidably delayed.
It would not be right to let people manipulate this in any way.

Not really sure how you are manipulating it? The only concern I can see with allowing engine use after 4 minutes for late arrivals is that in very light winds they might coast over the line with their momentum. By saying you have to do a 720 before starting you'd kill the momentum.

 

[bedouin]

Some offshore races allow the use of the engine in exceptional circumstances in which cases you should declare it and take whatever penalty is assessed.

I can't see the committee being particularly concerned unless you get an unfair advantage by doing so.

 

[lw395]

Not really sure how you are manipulating it? The only concern I can see with allowing engine use after 4 minutes for late arrivals is that in very light winds they might coast over the line with their momentum. By saying you have to do a 720 before starting you'd kill the momentum.

I think it's right in general that to count as a starter, you have to be around when the guns go.
It would be wrong to allow people to start late for convoluted tactical reasons, like seeing only a few boats have made it to the line and the point might be useful.

 

[dom]

I dunno. Obviously rule deviation is not possible in Nat/Int events, or in the RTIR where the start programme is packed.

I do take lw395's point about chancer tactics. But in competitive Club Racing it happens all the time - "Hey, just got a call from Mick who blasting out of the Hamble, shall we wait?" It is after all for the fun of it, and If a worthwhile series is at stake we want to beat him on the water, not because he got a puncture on the way down!

As for the RTIR - at least for many classes - who seriously cares

 

[dunedin]

Most of the races I take part in include in the sailing instructions motoring after 4 minute provided a 720 turn is taken after engine off and no interference with other boats. They also usually reduce the 2 turns after foul to 1.

These must be events where they expect a lot of people to be late onto the race course in the mornings.
Is this the “whisky hangover” rule?

 

[Muddy32]

Most SIs have the paragraph to say that boats failing to start before +4mins shall be given DNS. Likewise as others have said, one shall not use other motive means after the preparation signal. [normally 4mins before start.]
So - get your act in gear and get to the start, in time.

I did abandon a race once when 75% of the fleet failed to cross the line within the time, [ tide against], but normally have a Nelson's eye to those folk in less competitive, racing.

 

[Praxinoscope]

Oh come on folks, if you are entering a race then unless a specific rule has been relaxed (not an easy thing to do as there will almost always be an objection) you accept all the rules. I know it seems hard but where do you stop? Turning a blind eye is just the thin edge of the wedge, which rule do you wave next?
I have been in this position myself when competing, when with a new crew I mistakenly decided to change foresails before the start of the race, being new to the boat the crew took a lot longer to change the sails than I had allowed for, leaving us miles away from the start line on the 4 minute gun, I just accepted that I would cross the line about at least 3 minutes after everyone else, it didn’t even occur to me to start the engine.
Likewise when I have been OOD the race starts at the time published and I don’t wait for ‘Uncle Tom Cobbly & All’ to get their act together, there may be occasional extenuating circumstances when a race start must be delayed, but it’s not fair on those who have got to the start on time to hang around for late comers.
Of course if you think a particular rule is obsolete or unfair then campaign for it to be changed, don’t just ignore it.

 

[TLouth7]

We had a situation recently where the RO gave the warning signal at 10 minutes rather than 5. We were a decent distance downtide of the line in light winds. I am not familiar with the 10 minute sequence so did not know how long until the preparatory signal.

In this situation would you:
a - call up the RO and ask them to do the correct sequence
b - head towards the line asap but be ready to kill the engine in 1 minute, then accept being late
c - as for b but then request redress
d - head for the line but only turn your engine off at 4 minutes to go, get ready to defend any protest
or some other course of action?

I went for b, crossed the line a good 5 minutes late (it's only a casual series).

 

[Praxinoscope]

Hi TLouth7

My understanding of the rules is that normally on a 10 minute start the Preparatory signal is still 4 minutes before the start and it is at the Preparatory Signal yachts start to race, therefore you could have chosen option d and used your engine until the Prep’ Signal, and fought off any protest. Unless of course if you class flag had been raised, but as you say this was only a casual series I would guess it wasn’t a separate class series.
I must admit I had to think as I don’t think I have raced to a 10 min start for at least 10 years.

 

[lpdsn]

c - as for b but then request redress

On what grounds would you have sought redress? If the SIs said a 5-4-1 sequence then I'd be on the VHF when they did something different. If the SIs laid out a ten minute sequence then there's no cause for complaint. If I hadn't read the SIs...

 

[Birdseye]

I guess you can sum up the above responses by saying that the decision all depends on the seriousness of the racing. If it's an open IRC fleet then rules is rules. If it's a family friendly race for a fleet of NHC bilge Keeler's then it's all about letting everyone have a good time and woe betide the one miserable git who takes such issues seriously and has the nerve to put in a protest.