US gear/throttle levers?

I had a professional pilot on a delivery who was used to a supertanker's single lever control. We had twin-twin controls on Detroit V8s.

One night, entering an unlit creek, he almost messed up and shifted from F to R while the engines were doing 1500 revs. While guiding him around some nasties, I dropped the binoculars and almost punched him off the helm before he could go into astern. It was touch and go as to whether he had lunched the 'boxes.

You had to be very careful if you didn't know what you were doing with them. On the long-line fishing boats we had 3 levers, throttle, gears and an engine-driven winch control. All 3 were used using one hand while the other hand guided the fishing line. Now that lot really was a bleedin' handful to control at once. :)
 
Bandit said:
With single lever when you move from ahead to neutral to astern the throttle ramps down to idle and then up again as you pass slow ahead to neutral to astern, where as with twin levers per engine you could leave the throttle at say 1500 and go quickly from ahead to astern at that rpm.
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So the fail safe on your boat is that to move from ahead to astern with your single lever control, you have a time delay in neutral before you can re-engage gear. Is that correct? If so, that control power to the engine but doesn't necessarily stop windmilling if moving at the time.

With play d'eau's mechanical twin levers there's no delay so yes, in theory you can engage opposite gear at max power and that would be 'a huge ouch' to say the least. But like yours there's an indent in neutral but no time delay. Must say that I've never heard of errors being made, but that's not to say they haven't or can't.

If TwinDisc is happy for 1000rpm on Play d'eau's gearboxes for shifting, then I'm happy at 700, which in theory is only 50 rpm over idle. And no, I've never made a mistake....Bear in mind the levers are on opposite sides of the wheel so mixing them is hard.

I think the point you're making is that you have a potential safety factor whereas Play d'eau doesn't. Correct?
 
Piers said:
So the fail safe on your boat is that to move from ahead to astern with your single lever control, you have a time delay in neutral before you can re-engage gear. Is that correct? If so, that control power to the engine but doesn't necessarily stop windmilling if moving at the time.
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Nope, it does, because the process is actually more sophisticated.
WIth EC levers, you can effortlessly move from WOT forward to WOT reverse, in a split second.
But then the ECU starts doing its stuff:
1) reduce the throttle to idle
2) wait till the rpm actually goes down to idle
3) wait whatever delay is preset
4) disengage
5) repeat (3)
6) engage reverse
7) increase the throttle to WOT

I hate all that. With a passion.
And I suspect that most of those who don't, just aren't realising how EC levers actually work.
Pretty similar to those who love the IPS joystick... :rolleyes: :D
 
Bandit said:
its easy to "feel the click into slow ahead then neutral then slow astern
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Your train of thought is very common among folks who like electronic controls, but in reality it's exactly the opposite.
The click you feel only tells you that the lever is in the position you desire, but there's a lot of things that must still (and sometime do not) happen, before the gear is actually engaged/disengaged.

With the levers Piers is mentioning, what you feel with your hand is directly transmitted from the lever on the g/box.
In other words, the moment you push a mechanical lever forward and you feel a clunck, that's because the g/box actually engaged, not just because you hope (and wait till) it does. :)

Ref the problems you had with stiff mechanical levers in your old Fairline, my guess is that all it would have taken to solve it was a bit of lube - though obviously cable levers can be smoother or stiffer depending also on the installation path.
In this respect, obviously you will never find a boatbuilder who doesn't love EC levers: much easier and quicker to install!
 
Mapism

I think what you "feel" with Piers' controls is either the gear lever at the helm or at the GB end moving the cable and slotting in to an indent, I doubt very much you can feel a gear box itself actually engage other than by the feel of the boat. This would have been set up to correspond to the positions at helm and gearbox end being the same position in the same way an EC control would be set up by the engineer.

Ref the Fairline controls, I bought the boat with the intention of re powering it and the original controls were in a poor condition especially the fly position which had been out in the weather. The new controls still work on resistance against the other set which are in neutral and always required more force to use than was always practical especially when manoeuvring. a single station control of the same type always feels more definite and less spongy.
 
Bandit said:
I think what you "feel" with Piers' controls is either the gear lever at the helm or at the GB end moving the cable and slotting in to an indent, I doubt very much you can feel a gear box itself actually engage other than by the feel of the boat.
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Well, we are talking of Piers boat without actually having seen her (not myself, at least).
I just assumed, since he mentioned mechanical twin levers, that he has the same Uflex red/black levers as mine.
In fact, I half recall to have seen another Fleming with them.

Anyway, I can assure you that on my boat what you feel is exactly what I described.
Many years go, when I broke one cable, before replacing it I dismantled both the twin lever groups (to remove the mechanical "safe" lock), and I know exactly how they feel without a cable attached.
There is actually a small indent as you say, where a small steel sphere fits when the gear lever is centered,
But the feeling with/without the cable attached is like night and day.
I suppose it's hard to believe if you never tried it, but it's very close to being in the e/r and move the g/box lever by hand directly - it's that accurate.

Otoh, I agree that this ain't true for all mech controls: those in your old FL (where the lower and upper levers were NOT constantly mirrored) are nowhere near as sensible, imho - aside from being less practical.
 
Hi Guys,

Rather than cables, Play d'eau uses hydraulics for throttles and gears: http://www.seastarsolutions.com/products/controls-and-cables/hydraulic-controls/

Throttles (red knobs) are separate from Gears (black knobs) and mounted on opposite sides of the wheel in the pilot house and flybridge. There's a third set in the aft cockpit control station.

Moving any lever causes the others to move 'in sympathy'. Movement is smooth, not 'floppy' but requires deliberate effort. On the gear shifts, you feel the distinct indent of the neutral position of the gear lever on the TwinDisc itself.

Again, I'll say I'd find it really hard to move to combined throttle/gear levers. It seems that all Flemings now have combined levers by Glendinning EEC-3: http://www.glendinningprods.com/products/engine-controls/electronic

In 13 years since new, I've had no operational or mechanical issues with these at all.

A thought - with single levers, you deliberately have to lean over to the throttles to increase engine rpm. With combined levers, is it not almost too easy to increase rpm in error?
 
Piers said:
Rather than cables, Play d'eau uses hydraulics for throttles and gears
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Aha, I see.
Yep, those hynautic thingies were also very popular (Canados, Ferretti, Sanlorenzo, to name but a few).
Proper solid stuff, with a reputation for reliability. I've seen them also on several workboats.
And coming to think of it, I believe that a third station is something you couldn't have with cables.
My previous comment on the distinct and direct feedback while engaging the gear doesn't apply to hydraulic levers, though.
IIRC, that's sort of dampened - still very immediate in its action (as opposed to EC), but the feeling is not as distinctive as with cables.
In all other respects (single vs. twin, mechanical vs. electronic), all we said so far still stands. :encouragement:
 
Having used a Gardner with chain wheel gear change I can assure you all that both the systems are preferable and to that
 
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MapisM said:
Aha, I see.
Yep, those hynautic thingies were also very popular (Canados, Ferretti, Sanlorenzo, to name but a few).
Proper solid stuff, with a reputation for reliability. I've seen them also on several workboats.
My previous comment on the distinct and direct feedback while engaging the gear doesn't apply to hydraulic levers, though.
IIRC, that's sort of dampened - still very immediate in its action (as opposed to EC), but the feeling is not as distinctive as with cables.
Click to expand...

Yes, hydraulic controls have advantages. Also the odd disadvantage.....like when switching from wing control back to main helm. Ok, so we left the main control in ahead and when switching back, and twatted the harbour wall with the bulbous-bow in Malta in the 75m Leander G. :O
 
I found four levers for two engines on a narrow beam stern drive boat a complete PITA, not least reason for which you need on occasion a bit of wheel action as well. With a more generous beam thus prop separation I'm confident a four lever workload drops significantly. Combined controls on shafts is -in my recent experience - a negligible workload by comparison.
 
Was it really so different than with twins? Normally, you don't need the center screw at all, while maneuvering...
 
Sorry forgot to add a comment to the quote.
There have been a number of RS43s with triples, mine has triple Yanmar's with 6 levers (3 x throttle, 3 x gear selectors). Like most things, once you get used to them they seem perfectly natural. When manoeuvreing in the marina I just use the outside engines and ignore the centre one (simples).
 
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