Upper Spreaders for burgee?

[Whaup367]

Maybe my use of search is poor but I haven't managed to find any clarity from previous discussions on this, my apologies.

Is there any reason why a boat with a double spreader rig shouldn't fly a burgee from the upper starboard spreaders (instead of masthead) and reserve the lower starboard spreader for signals (eg courtesy flags, Q etc), please?

Thanks,
W.

 

[Poignard]

The flag halyard for the burgee flown at the upper spreader will chafe on the lower spreader, unless you can devise some means of leading it clear.

 

[johnalison]

The flag halyard for the burgee flown at the upper spreader will chafe on the lower spreader, unless you can devise some means of leading it clear.

My first thought too. Maybe you could make a conduit past the spreader with a plastic eye at least for the fall. It would certainly look strange, but I quite like the idea, though two lots of string would be a nuisance.

 

[dunedin]

Maybe my use of search is poor but I haven't managed to find any clarity from previous discussions on this, my apologies.

Is there any reason why a boat with a double spreader rig shouldn't fly a burgee from the upper starboard spreaders (instead of masthead) and reserve the lower starboard spreader for signals (eg courtesy flags, Q etc), please?

Thanks,
W.

In theory, the courtesy flag for the country you are visiting should be the highest on the starboard spreader. Having your club burgee above it would therefore be discourteous.
In foreign waters we have always assumed courtesy flag uppermost to starboard, house/club flags to port.

A handful of (snooty?) clubs insist that their burgee must be above everything else and at the masthead. This would be a good reason to avoid them

 

[Whaup367]

In theory, the courtesy flag for the country you are visiting should be the highest on the starboard spreader. Having your club burgee above it would therefore be discourteous.

Surely this would also apply to flying the burgee at the masthead? A more senior position than either starboard spreader.

It's not entirely clear from what I've read but more than one source states that the courtesy flag is a "signal", hence its hoist at "the" spreader, where it should have priority over any other flags on the same halyard(?). What I'm wondering is if the lower spreader could be considered the "signal station", with the upper spreader being an alternative to the masthead.

Happy to be corrected on etiquette or interpretation!

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Club burgees should be flown from the mast head. If the masthead is not suitable due to absence of a masthead halyard or masthead instruments, then starboard spreader is acceptable. As others have stated, courtesy ensigns are to be flown superior to all on the starboard ensign.

RYA C4/01 Flag Etiquette and Visual Signals

As also noted, none of this is in any regulation, it is just etiquette based on tradition, probably because it was a practical way of distinguishing meaning.
If entering the waters of another country and flying the burgee from the starboard spreader then you strike the burgee from the starboard spreader, and raise the courtesy flag. Striking the burgee from the masthead is also required, if following etiquette. This is logical as going foreign means that flying your burgee is pointless, in a similar manner as the ensign was removed once at sea.

Flying the burgee from the masthead, does not mean superior, as the position of the ensign is the superior position, with the masthead being the next position and superior from the starboard cross tree flag halyard. Hence, you strike the burgee because the courtesy flag is superior to other flags except the ensign.

Flag etiquette

As the Ensign takes the senior position on a vessel, the order of precedence for positions for flying other flags is: 2) masthead, 3) starboard spreader, 4) port spreader. This assumes a simple plan of one halyard per spreader; other combinations including motor boats are discussed in the Members’ section.

Courtesy Flag Etiquette and Information | Jimmy Green Marine

Burgee Etiquette

The burgee should take the next most senior position on a yacht - generally at the main masthead.
Only one burgee should be flown on a yacht.
Burgees are now commonly flown at the starboard spreaders. However, no other flag should be flown above the burgee on the same halyard.
You should not fly a burgee above a national courtesy flag on the same halyard.
Therefore if you choose to fly your burgee at the starboard spreader, you will have a dilemma in ‘foreign waters'.
This could be prevented by reeving a second flag halyard to the starboard spreader but it is not strictly following flag etiquette.

 

[Poignard]

When I had masthead burgees their primary purpose was to indicate wind direction relative to the yacht.

 

[Whaup367]

Club burgees should be flown from the mast head. If the masthead is not suitable due to absence of a masthead halyard or masthead instruments, then starboard spreader is acceptable. As others have stated, courtesy ensigns are to be flown superior to all on the starboard ensign.

Not sure what you mean here: assuming you mean the starboard spreader, then that's my interpretation. Though the possibilities offered by a multi-spreader rig are not discussed.

RYA C4/01 Flag Etiquette and Visual Signals

As also noted, none of this is in any regulation, it is just etiquette based on tradition, probably because it was a practical way of distinguishing meaning.
If entering the waters of another country and flying the burgee from the starboard spreader then you strike the burgee from the starboard spreader, and raise the courtesy flag. Striking the burgee from the masthead is also required, if following etiquette. This is logical as going foreign means that flying your burgee is pointless, in a similar manner as the ensign was removed once at sea.

Flying the burgee from the masthead, does not mean superior, as the position of the ensign is the superior position, with the masthead being the next position and superior from the starboard cross tree flag halyard. Hence, you strike the burgee because the courtesy flag is superior to other flags except the ensign.

Flag etiquette

...but only on the one halyard to the signal station. Superior to the other signal flags, not to the burgee which is flown elsewhere (eg at the masthead?).

Courtesy Flag Etiquette and Information | Jimmy Green Marine

Again- does not address the question:
Assumption-1: Order of seniority is stern, masthead, upper (outer, then inner?) starboard, lower outer starboard, lower inner starboard, port.
Assumption-2: Courtesy flag is a signal, as is Q.

The burgee should be flown at masthead, if not masthead, why not upper starboard; leaving lower starboard as the signal station for Q/courtesy flags.

One solution is to replace any special ensign with the red ensign, removing any need to fly a burgee.
Another is to ensure it's possible to fly the burgee from the masthead
A third is to move the burgee to port but that's deprecated, as detailed above.

So why not adopt the fourth option (if available) and fly the burgee from the upper starboard spreader? It's surely a similar (but possibly less confusing?) solution to using a second halyard to the lower starboard for the same purpose, as you suggest above.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

There is no regulation, so fly what you want, where you want to fly it from. It is that simple and straightforward.

 

[Refueler]

There is no regulation, so fly what you want, where you want to fly it from. It is that simple and straightforward.

There are established and accepted means of flying signals / flags / burgees. It comes down to etiquette and respect.

Sadly not a lot of either in this world today - so maybe we can preserve this ??

 

[Greemble]

I believe what you are missing is that one, two, three or more spreaders makes no difference.
You will still be placing your burgee on the starboard rigging and as such, it should not be flown above a courtesy flag. To do so would be disrespectful (discourteous, perhaps) to the host country.

As in post #6, strike the burgee before entering the foreign port - your burgee would be pretty much meaningless there. In fact, you should probably have taken down the burgee once out at sea anyway. Doing so would save wear & tear.

 

[Whaup367]

I believe what you are missing is that one, two, three or more spreaders makes no difference.
You will still be placing your burgee on the starboard rigging and as such, it should not be flown above a courtesy flag. To do so would be disrespectful (discourteous, perhaps) to the host country.

Thanks. yes, that's what I was seeking to understand. None of the etiquette summaries I've come across so far have been clear on this point (focus tends to be "on the same halyard"). The comment-on/possibility-of reeving a second flag halyard speaks to the same point- either offers a solution but neither follows protocol (established when a masthead burgee was the wind indicator).

As in post #6, strike the burgee before entering the foreign port - your burgee would be pretty much meaningless there. In fact, you should probably have taken down the burgee once out at sea anyway. Doing so would save wear & tear.

Good point. Thanks.

 

[VicS]

Thanks. yes, that's what I was seeking to understand. None of the etiquette summaries I've come across so far have been clear on this point (focus tends to be "on the same halyard"). The comment-on/possibility-of reeving a second flag halyard speaks to the same point- either offers a solution but neither follows protocol (established when a masthead burgee was the wind indicator).


Good point. Thanks.

See the advice from the RYA here
RYA Flag etiquette

RYA members can download the reorganised version of the old C4/01 booklet referred to earlier
Flag etiquette book
.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

There are established and accepted means of flying signals / flags / burgees. It comes down to etiquette and respect.

Sadly not a lot of either in this world today - so maybe we can preserve this ??

Indeed, as I indicated in post 6. I think it is preserved, on a whole, from what I can see. There are obvious exceptions where I sail, the old Scottish navy ensign flown in the superior position, code flag M flown instead of the red duster as the courtesy flag, and also the union flag. In fact, visiting yachts usually fly the union flag. Burgee use is fairly standard compliance, most notably CCC and RHYC all flown at the masthead.

I think tradition is safely in place, and where it is not, there is no drama.

 

[Whaup367]

See the advice from the RYA here
RYA Flag etiquette

Which explicitly states that it "...assumes a simple plan of one halyard per spreader..."

RYA members can download the reorganised version of the old C4/01 booklet referred to earlier
Flag etiquette book
.

..which also wasn't entirely clear to me.

As @Greemble clarified above: the thing I had missed is that the guidance refers to starboard spreaders (plural), not "the" or "a" starboard spreader. With this in mind it's clearer that any flag to starboard should be a signal, with a courtesy flag taking priority.

Appreciate the light that's been shed on this. I'll seek to follow protocol, should the need arise!

Thanks.

 

[Refueler]

Masts with dual height spreaders can have flag halyards by using the different mast stays. Top spreaders hlayard taken back to the after lowers ... bottom spreaders halyards taken to fwd lowers or cap shrouds.

BUT the days of multi hoist like that went out with the ships of Nelsons time ... now hoists are from the most convenient spreader.

 

[dunedin]

Masts with dual height spreaders can have flag halyards by using the different mast stays. Top spreaders hlayard taken back to the after lowers ... bottom spreaders halyards taken to fwd lowers or cap shrouds.

BUT the days of multi hoist like that went out with the ships of Nelsons time ... now hoists are from the most convenient spreader.

What are these things “forward lowers” and “after lowers” ? Don’t exist on our twin spreader rig.

But we don’t have enough flags to worry about this. Ensign only except when needing courtesy or Q flags.

 

[LittleSister]

So, that's the starboard upper spreaders question sorted.

Now onto the thorny flag etiquette question as to whether, when flying both, the YBW Forums burgee or the East Coast Forum Flag of Awesomeness should take, er, pole position.

 

[Greemble]

So, that's the starboard upper spreaders question sorted.

Now onto the thorny flag etiquette question as to whether, when flying both, the YBW Forums burgee or the East Coast Forum Flag of Awesomeness should take, er, pole position.


View attachment 199295
View attachment 199299

Simple enough.
YBW takes the higher position as ECF is a sub-set of the YBW.

 

[LittleSister]

Simple enough.
YBW takes the higher position as ECF is a sub-set of the YBW.

But the ECF is superior in so many ways to the generality of the YBW forums and the riff-raff you get in them.