Update Greek Port Police Procedures

[LadyJessie]

Some time ago, Jim B asked for inputs on new Greek harbour check-in/check-out procedures. He had been given the impression that the very stringent requirements of checking into and checking out of every port had been relaxed and he asked for inputs on actual processes.

Well, I have just spent the last week in Kos and Symi and I decided to ask the PP here what their understanding was. This is clearly the two places in all of Greece where adherence to rules are the most paramount. The PP in both places claimed that there had not been any change in the rules; you are still required to check into and clear out of EVERY Greek harbour EVERY time. The PP in Kos even directed me to this web page run by the Greek Ministry of Tourism that contains the rules:

http://www.gnto.gr/pages.php?pageID=172&langID=2

They claimed that if the rules would be changed, which they clearly thought was a very low probability, it would be announced on this page. I already knew of this page and as Jim B has noted; it has not changed in a long time. The PP also was quick to tell me that these rules are crucial to defend the Greek and EU borders and therefore are very unlikely to change. I had to severely restrain myself from commenting on the fact that sitting in an office putting rubber stamps on paper might not be the most efficient manner of border control. How about actually going out and patrolling the border? It has been tried very succesfully by other countries! But no, I was not brave enough to say this to an officer with a big gun on his belt.

My understanding of the Greek PP situation is unchanged and they are still in place: these silly rules are unknown or totally disregarded in the Ionian. Then they get gradually and unevenly more implemented the more east you get; until you get to Kos and Symi where it is almost religious. Rhodes and Tilos are very close in adherence to the letter of the law.

Now, in real life; things are very different. Most (if not all) cruisers totally disregard these rules. I have many cruiser friends who have cruised Greece for many years without any piece of paper or a rubber stamp. The risk of discovery is very, very low as the PP spends most of their time in their officies and are not patrolling. I have lately joined this majority of cruisers and are now disregarding the rules totally. However, if you do, you shouild be aware of what you are doing and make sure you yourself are happy with the risk/reward balance.

 

[Oliveoyl]

Re: Update Greek Police Procedures

In a few days time, we have a 2 week charter out of Turgutreis, Greek flagged boat based in Turkey. Asked the charter company wot extra cost to stop over in Kos or Simi -answer 250 EUR, plus down time for paperwork. So , no we won't be visiting these Greek islands this year.

 

[PLEIAS]

Hi there,
As i am Greek and live and sail in Greece there are some answers to your questions that are not clear since in your country there are different authorities.First of all the PP stands for Port Police and that should cover their role.Greek and therefore EU borders to the east is patroled by the Greek Navy with the assistance of a special unit of border patrol more like coast guard special forces.Last time i heard there were no attempts to enter the EU borders in tte Ionian Sea unless your concept of geographical borders is different.Yes they do seem to put stamps all day and you should be glad as Greece is not the Police-controlled country as some other EU members are so enjoy it but don't overdo it.Best regards and have fun where you can still have fun...

 

[LadyJessie]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes they do seem to put stamps all day and you should be glad as Greece is not the Police-controlled country as some other EU members are

[/ QUOTE ]
Hi Pleias! I know that you as a Greek don't have to follow these rules, but please then understand how difficult it is for us other EU citizens to have to endure these silly rules. The idea with the EU is that rules are the same for all EU citizens in the whole union. The Greeks are not playing by the rules here. IMHO

I am not sure what 'other EU members' you are thinking of here? I don't know any other EU country where you have to check in and out of every harbour with the port police. It is a very special Greek requirement and it is a clear violation of the basic EU rules of free movement within the union.

Yes, I know that the term 'PP' is a bit sloppy, we have used it for so long that it has stuck. I have understood that they have now merged with the Coast Guard (sorry, forgot what that Greek term is). However, that has not changed their behaviour one bit; although they now sport classy 'Hellenic Coast Guard' uniforms, they still just sit in their offices and put rubber stamps in documents. I am not sure they even have any boats.

I am sorry but I have to disagree with your description of the role of the Greek Navy. These 'PP' or 'Coast Guard' types are very adamant that they are the ones protecting the borders from illegal entry (from behind their desks). I think the Greek Navy is protecting you from an attack by another Navy.

And yes, I know where the Ionian is. Why don't you read the rules and you will learn that they are intended to have effect OVER ALL OF GREECE. That they are not is another, not completely understood, matter.

 

[Troutbridge]

Certainly in 1994, in Portugal (mainland, Porto Santo & Madeira) the procedure was Police, Port Authorities and Immigration, in and out in each harbour. In 2004 it was the same in the Azores and I don't think the situation has changed since then, so Greece isn't the only country to have a different interpretation of the EU rules.

 

[LadyJessie]

Yes, Portugal had a similar system to the Greek but that thas has been scrapped, I think in 1999. Don't know about the Azores, but is that really EU? I know it is formally part of Portugal, but thay have, together with Madeira, a lot of "non EU" rules especially in tax.

 

[vyv_cox]

We returned last night from a summer in Greece. I agree that the required procedures are confusing and not understood, particularly by the Port Police. On clearing in at Gouvia we read a large notice issued by the PP there. This clearly said that it is only necessary to have the transit log stamped once per month. I queried this with the officer there, who confirmed it.

Arriving at Prevesa a week or so later I took the log to the office, to be told that I needed to have it stamped in every port. At Vathi, Ithaca, the lady PP refused to stamp it, reiterating the 'once per month' rule. At Killini a PP man toured the quay in a car, sending every yacht skipper up to the office to get stamped (and pay!). In Zakinthos an official took every transit log as soon as the boat arrived, in our case before we even had our warps sorted. Here we were charged considerably more than elsewhere, for reasons that were impossible to understand.

Finally, we returned to Prevesa before hauling out. On our last day afloat I visited the PP office for a final formality, just as the Japanese Grand Prix was finishing. The same officers refused to stamp my log (far too busy watching the TV), telling me that the yard would do it after we hauled out. This turned out to be completely untrue, the yard has no jurisdiction to do it.

I have spoken to many yachtsmen who don't even have a cruising log (not a good idea IMHO) and others who have gone as long as 18 months without having it stamped. If you get caught by the PP they might say something but more than likely won't. There is no computerisation, so it is not known where any yacht has been or is going to. If you spend a night at anchor, then perhaps it might have been three nights or three weeks? Nobody cares.

 

[jimbaerselman]

I'm afraid you may not understand the fundamental difference between the application of the Napoleonic code of law, and the liberal code, familiar in UKand USA among others.

The Napoleonic code is prescriptive - describes what you may do - and all other activities are not permitted. Most of the Med coutries adhere to the Napoleonic code to varying degrees. Inevitably, the law is always out of date. Officials, if asked about the law, will quote it. The officials are also realistic, and realise that if (in the case of Greece) they applied the rules, many islands without port police would starve, since no traffic to them would be permitted. They have therefore apply various tolerances to allow life to be lived. Well done for them finding a way around presciptive law.

The same issues affect all Napoleonic code influenced countries. Officialdon has very great powers, which are rarely excercised, unless you anger a local politician or competitor. Try doing business in France, Italy or Spain.

My website gives the most exact guidance possible for yotties faced by these uncertanities. I differentiate between the law, and the practice.

If anyone doesn't like the uncertainty concerned between what the law is, and how it's applied, they should keep clear of France, Spain, Portugal and Italy. That would be boring though. And,frankly, in Greece, they'd be missing out on one of the world's cruising areaqs which offers incredible variety and lot of sun.

PS, the reported possible relaxation in procedures for non-EU yachts was an abberation . . . lucky fellow. My site will be upddatred when I can get a more rekiable connection.

 

[jimbaerselman]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Pleias! I know that you as a Greek don't have to follow these rules, but please then understand how difficult it is for us other EU citizens to have to endure these silly rules.

[/ QUOTE ] You're in error here. The identical laws apply to him as they do to you or me in out EU flag boats. It's just that he's used to the system and accepts it.

 

[LadyJessie]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm afraid you may not understand the fundamental difference between the application of the Napoleonic code of law, and the liberal code, familiar in UKand USA among others.

Try doing business in France, Italy or Spain.

My website gives the most exact guidance possible for yotties faced by these uncertanities.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes Jim, I do happen to know something about the Napoleonic code. I based my doctorate of law on it (at a 'liberal' university: Cornell, NY). I think you are the one who don't know what its implications are and are drawing nonsensical conclusions from your misunderstanding. The PP rules are just bureaucratic bullshit, that you can find in any country. It has nothing to to with any 'Napolean' tradition.

It is nonsense to equate doing business in Greece with France, Italy or Spain. Just doing that comparison shows that you have not been doing business in all those countries. I have.

I would recommend that everyone treats any recommendation that Jim gives on his website with extreme caution. It is a mix of outdated information and wishful thinking. Apart from the geographical information, which is really good, I would treat it as a not very good description of present reality.

 

[jimbaerselman]

[ QUOTE ]
It is nonsense to equate doing business in Greece with France, Italy or Spain. Just doing that comparison shows that you have not been doing business in all those countries. I have.

[/ QUOTE ] Well, I suppose setting up yachting enterprises in all those countries and running them for some 15 years doesn't really count as a business activity then . . . [ QUOTE ]
I would recommend that everyone treats any recommendation that Jim gives on his website with extreme caution. It is a mix of outdated information and wishful thinking. Apart from the geographical information, which is really good, I would treat it as a not very good description of present reality

[/ QUOTE ] Well, I live in Greece 6 months of the year, I've just completed a survey of Ionian and Peloponese practices (in a yacht) and I've received inputs describing current practice from nearly a hundred sources. If that's out of date . . .

Oh, and I've just updated the site this morning to put things more exactly.

 

[chrisarcher]

Jims site has a lot of good and useful information and anyone who trake the time and care to share it with the web community should be applauded. As with all information it should be down to the reader to interpret what may be usful to themselves.
All I can say is that all private vessels visiting Greece have it easy compaired to commercial yachts. Primarily designed for safety and monitoring useage for taxation purposes, the paperwork involved in owning a Greek charter yacht is mind blowing at times!!
Despite all the potential hassles, don't be put off in sailing the Greek waters, the scenery is spectacular and if you manage to get here out of season then you should have a fairly stress free time at harbours and ports.
All I can advise is really to echo the thoughts of others that have written here, you can't go wrong if you stick to the rules - at least as they are written at present!

Happy & safe sailing to all.

 

[LadyJessie]

[ QUOTE ]
Despite all the potential hassles, don't be put off in sailing the Greek waters, the scenery is spectacular and if you manage to get here out of season then you should have a fairly stress free time at harbours and ports.
All I can advise is really to echo the thoughts of others that have written here, you can't go wrong if you stick to the rules - at least as they are written at present!

[/ QUOTE ]
Totally agree with your first part: it is a spectacular cruising ground. Don't agree with your second, as that kind of destroys the enjoyment.

If you try to follow all the Greek rules; you will end up hating Greece. (Just set aside for a moment that no one above seems to agree what those rules really are... another example of the difficulty of sailing Greece). The exposure to petty, random and ugly bureaucracy will be upsetting. You have to find that balance in yourself that you will have to break rules but still feel good about it.

If you are not happy with living this crime/punishment balance: many other Med cruising areas will give you as nice an experience as Greece.

 

[jimbaerselman]

[ QUOTE ]
Just set aside for a moment that no one above seems to agree what those rules really are

[/ QUOTE ] The Greek law is fairly clear if that's what you mean by 'the rules' excepting for one ambiguity about yacht lengths (DEKRA for yacht aove 7m, or above 10m). What is equally clear is that the law is impossible to obey, especially if you anchor away from port police manned places.

I quote 'my rules' (which cover normal port police practice) in order to give strangers to the system some guidance to how to behave.

It's perfectly reasonable for anyone to disagree with my rules of behaviour and say they will lead to trouble. In which case it's helpful if a re-wording is proposed and reasons given. But they have to be concise, otherwise they'll be ignored . . . like the Greek law in this matter.

 

[LadyJessie]

Jim, I emailed you some very detailed suggestions for updates to your site. You elected to ignore them so I will not waste any more of my online connections trying to improve your site.

Can we at least agree on this truth: the Greek rules are a mess and difficult to follow. The fact that you in your last response have to refer to both 'Greek rules' and 'my rules', although they mean different things, clearly is a sign that something is very wrong in the Port Police of Greece. Stop trying to defend them. I am working to get them changed. What are you doing about it?

 

[Davy_S]

I have to ask, why is it only You who seem to have all the problems? on various posts about similar subjects you seem intent on attacking the Greek system and promoting Turkey. I think that the effort that Jim has put into his site deserves a little respect not rudeness. I am honestly beggining to think you are the problem, possibly an attitude to any form of authority.
The Greeks like other nations have a very serious problem of illegal immigrants arriving via Turkey, they have a job to do, let them get on with it, relax and enjoy
This is not meant as a personal attack, but please stop griping, it is becoming tiresome.

 

[jimbaerselman]

Being a pedantic sort of fellow, I refer to 'The Greek Law', and on the other hand, 'my rules' for working satisfactorily with the port police.

I accept that the Greek law is a nonsense for leisure yachts. So do the port police. Thank heavens. But they're not allowed to publish 'rules' which contravene the law, so they only offer oral advice. Which I repeat in as concise a form as possible.

And I (with many others) have been working to change the old 1974 law since 1980, when I first started water sport businesses in Greece. Many of our proposals have been accepted, but only after going through the European courts. That takes time . . .

 

[LadyJessie]

[ QUOTE ]
possibly an attitude to any form of authority.

[/ QUOTE ]
Take away the word 'any' and you would be absolutely spot on in your analysis of my relation with the Greek PP: I do have a serious problem with authority projected based on nonsense rules. This is only matched by my contempt for anyone accepting it, instead of trying to change it.

There should be no place in a civilised society like the EU for this kind of nonsense. This is banana republic stuff. And it gets in the way of our cruising....

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

sheesh... chill out a bit will you....

I sadly know nothing about cruising in Greece, but if a bit of bureaucracy is the worst I have to deal with when I do discover its delights, then i'll not be too sad!

 

[LadyJessie]

[ QUOTE ]
but if a bit of bureaucracy is the worst I have to deal with when I do discover its delights, then i'll not be too sad!

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, if that 'bureaucracy' told you that they will confiscate your boat just because they thought you did not have enough rubber stamps; would you not feel a little bit concerned? It has happened to me twice in Greece. A real nightmare scenario was presented, just because someone thought I had not checked in and out EVERY day. Again, authority projected based on nonsense. Scary stuff. Really difficult to 'chill out....'

I have since learned that they can not actually do that, they can only 'impound' your boat until you have payed their fines. But they will not tell you that.