Update from Brokers on Second Hand boat sales....

[Nautorius]

Hi All,

As you are aware I am trying to sell two boats, one power and one sail. Both were already on the market at a price lower than the Brokers suggested, but they have not sold. I got a call from one of the Brokers on Friday to say that the market is not picking up. There are still buyers out there who are getting boats at a good price, but there has been only a slight seasonal increase in actual offers and sales. They are suggesting that in order to kick start the market that asking prices need to be dropped by 10%. In this way they hope to tempt someone in who was hanging back.

They also noted that because the cost of borrowing had risen that people were getting quotes for boats then immediately either lowering their sights to a smaller boat or walking away.

All in all a very difficult market at present. Supply massively outstrips demand in all sectors! (although certain brands and models appear to still be competitive)

So I rang a couple of potential other brokers about both Power and Sail opportunities.

They both skirted the subject but eventually admitted that most boats are struggling to sell and that Price is not the only factor affecting it. Berthing costs on the South Coast seem to have finally reached a level where people will not enter the market. Borrowing is hard with increased rates but borrowing and paying very high mooring are scaring people off!

No hint of Red Diesel in any argument!

So I see a lot of boats coming onto brokerage and very few leaving. Is the market stalled around you or still competitive?

Cheers

Paul /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[gjgm]

still comes down to price, I think. As your broker says, boats are selling, but the buyers are getting the better side of the deal.
Is the cost of borrowing really an issue? On £50k, the 0.5pct increase in rates equates to £20 a month...

 

[peterb26]

Out in Portugal its much the same story. I know a local broker quite well and he has been desperate for sales since the start of the year.

 

[tome]

[ QUOTE ]
Berthing costs on the South Coast seem to have finally reached a level where people will not enter the market

[/ QUOTE ]

Think you might have hit the nail on the head. I know of 2 people who walked away from purchasing after discovering the cost of berthing

 

[Nautorius]

Yep,

Mind you increase is 0.75% since Aug 06. On its own not enough but add in over inflation mooring costs and their own Mortgage (home) costs increasing and things are looking bleaker. This was in answer to a question to the brokers about Hamble and solent area as that is traditionally where boats have sold fastest and where mooring is ridiculously expensive! Hence why I need to know about other areas!

Cheers

Paul /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[burgundyben]

I'm not so sure its about the cost of berthing, even on the Hamble if you look around and talk to all the institutions that have moorings there are choices other than to pay MDL size fees.

For those that want a big lump of white plastic moored on a finger with the de hum plugged in then yes, sure, its expensive, but if you really want your own boat there is many other cheaper options.

 

[Nautorius]

Fair point Ben,

Of Course there are always alternatives. The Brokers are based at Hamble Point and Premiere (moodys) so not cheap marinas! I assume buyer asks "how much to moor here?" ££££££s.. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

The other broker was Port Solent and internet based. For them both mooring seemed less important.

Interesting comment about Portugal, lots of boats based out there appearing on EBAY and B&O. Would it back up a slow down all over or just with British buyers all over?

Cheers

Paul /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[KINGFISHER 9]

Just spent 9 nights in Hamble Point - when I got the bill I thought I'd bought a majority shareholding in the company!

 

[Mike_S]

We got what I considered to be a good deal when we bought ours last month. OK it's not a big boat / big outlay (£15k) but I did find it to be very much a buyers market and tbh, that put me off to a degree. The boat we bought had been for sale at the brokers for at least 6 months that I was aware of and they accepted an offer of 20% off what it had originally been up for sale at.

The broker tried to sell a cruiser to a friend of ours when we did the sea trial when he expressed mild interest in it, his comment was "It's up for £30k but I know they'll take £5k off that if you're interested". All that did was make me think they had valued it at a minimum of £5k too much. I guess it depends to a degree on how urgently the owners need to sell.

As I've said elsewhere though, I mentioned to the broker that I was also looking to buy from the US given the current exchange rate. His reply was you're not the only one, the UK boat market and values are being depressed by the number of people doing exactly that in the up to £40k bracket. I don't know how much of an impact that is on the bigger / more expensive boats though.

 

[D3B]

I agree on the berthing costs.
I keep my boat on the East Coast and in a not too popular area. (at the moment)
Mooring fees are around 2/5 what people pay in the Solent area.

Cruising grounds within similar range to those from the Solent?
Holland and its canals
Belgium and its canals.
N. France and its canals.
Germany and its rivers (ok a bit further)
and London for those that want to see a show.

and if you fancy a little gentle ditch crawling there is the Broads.

All superb ares and cheaper than Guernsey, Jersey and NW France.

£2000 cheaper mooring is an awful lot of fuel, even at white prices.


Now form an orderly queue and I will tell you where to go /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Doug

 

[gjgm]

think people have got a bit too much Sun regarding exchange rates. The exchange rate saving on $100k boat from a year ago to today is about £2500.

 

[Mike_S]

I guess it depends whether that $100k boat is £100k in the UK or not (excessive comparison maybe).

All I can say is that certainly in the price range I was looking at, it was a straight $ for £ comparison so even bringing the import / shipping costs into the equation I'd have been better off importing. I looked at a few Chapparal 215's, for the same year / spec I found several in the US for $28000 'sticker' price which on the few phonecalls I made, would in reality have been $22-24000 (so ~£13k). The same boat over here is pretty hard to find but the ones I did, were iro £30k. All in I reckoned on getting one here for ~£22k, a significant saving. It did depend very much on the brand of boat I looked at though, some of them aren't worth the hassle.

As it turned out we found our Regal and negotiated a price I thought reasonable and it came with a quality trailer into the deal. Had this not happened, we'd have been on our way to the US for our holidays.

 

[andrewa]

Thanks for the post I had an inkling this was the case, I have had my boat up since late last year and put it into this months Boat Trader, May last year I put it in but due to a sale that finally fell through lost the will to sell and kept it and used it. On the first week of publication I had 18 calls, this year 0, none and the mag has been out for 2 weeks I think. I am in the sub 30k bracket and am lucky in a way, my boat is a fully compliant personal import so it doesnt owe me too much. I have to confess I didn't factor in mooring fees being an issue just maybe red diesel and interest rates.

On imports, I was out in Southampton a couple of weekends ago to see the cruise ships and there were at least 10+ shrink wrapped boats from the US on QE2 dock awaiting collection. However, I keep in touch with the boat dealer in the US who sold me my boat and he said the export business is slow which with the weakness of the dollar surprised him.

 

[volvopaul]

Good luck with the sales, are you paying 2 mooring charges as well? my immaculate well priced failine corniche took 6 months to sell, it was in very good condition and new owner didnt even bother with a survey, i even insisted he had a river trial as well.

As an engineer in this business I cannot see a downturn in repairs and servicing but sales here in the East Midlands seem slower this year than in previous, I often wonder how much longer the British boatbuilders will keep turning out new boats, there are not enough marinas being built to moor them all.

A few years ago we moored in Lymington Yacht Haven, where at one time there was a massive waiting list, not only did you have to pay them to go on the list and it was not refundable if you didnt take a berth when one was available, now they are actually advertising berths for rent, whats that all about I wonder.
I am in the market for a new motor cruiser and have read with great interest the "Rant at brokers" posts, I find it quite true and annoying that they never phone or e mail back, I thought they would be desperate for a sale as things are.
Dont worry im sure things will pick up soon.

 

[gjgm]

ok, but many boats in USA are cheaper anyway. My point is that the exchange rate-which you refered to- isnt going to have made much difference. You also have shipping to Uk and CE proofing. People on here have done it, and there are companies that do it too. There have been lots of discussions on this over the years. Most people concluded that what appears as a huge margin quickly gets eroded, and doesnt leave enough to merit the trouble. I can think of one Chapparal imported that is half the price of a Uk speccd one. After two years, it still hasnt been sold, even at that much cheaper.

 

[Nautorius]

Hi Paul,

We are paying storage fees for both boats which means we can not use the boats but it is easier for a buyer to see as out of the water.

Fortunately the Money from one is going towards a boat for spain and the other as a deposit on another boat. the idea was sell current boat, save money over summer and buy in winter. Given we have not saved much I doubt we can get the boat we want this winter. Other factors also contribute.

Mind you we also do not need to sell either and if the Market collapses we are left with two great and usable boats.

Oh well, interested to see how the south east and Wales markets are doing, business seems brisk around Pwhelli!

Cheers

Paul /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I agree with tome. I think it's berthing costs that puts peeps off. Virtually every other boating cost is discretionary ie. the owner has some control over the cost either by using the boat less (eg fuel) or by doing it himself (ie maintenance) but berthing is the one cost that is unavoidable and, furthermore, it is perceived as a 'money for nothing' type expenditure (a bit like tax). £10k to park your boat? You must be joking
I also agree that interest rates have an effect. Anyone borrowing money to buy a boat is also likely to have borrowed money to buy a house or car and therefore an interest rate rise, however modest, has a significant effect on the overall household budget. Everybody needs a house and a car but a boat is a pure luxury so it has to go

 

[Major Catastrophe]

[ QUOTE ]
I also agree that interest rates have an effect.

[/ QUOTE ]

If bought on a marine mortgage, rather than piggybacked onto a house mortgage, the payments don't change, just the loan duration.

 

[Mike_S]

Bit of a tangent here but, are yacht club moorings any cheaper than marina's on the south coast or not ?

I know we're lucky with that in Cardiff as we're members of one of the yacht clubs, so have access to the club pontoons which makes a staggering difference for us. The adjacent Penarth Marina would cost me £1800 per year, whereas I'm only paying £600 to the club for what is essentially the same thing (and I know which I'd rather pay the money to!). The only difference I can quantify is that the marina is 100% sheltered from the wind, whereas the club pontoons are probably 80% sheltered. I know the availability of club moorings is dwindling though, such is the demand. I'm told a few boats have moved out of the marina to the adjacent clubs.

Being new to the world of boat ownership I may just be asking a daft question though, so feel free to ignore me.

 

[ari]

Agree about marina costs, especially as a proportion of the boat value on smaller boats.

However, all the (expensive) south coast marinas seem to be absolutely chock full, which is odd. In fact, one wonders whether it isn't the cost so much as availability? Not much point buying a boat if there is no where to put it.

As to alternatives to marinas, it's 20 year waiting lists and closed lists round my way, I've checked. So swinging mooring etc aren't really an alternative.

With regards to the comment someone put about UK boat builders and UK marinas being full, bear in mind that probably 80-90% of boats built by The Big Three (Fairline, Princess, Sunseeker) are exported.