Unregistered charter boat

[IanL]

A well known charter company on the south coast tells me that not all their boats are registered and even if they were registered, I would not be issued with the documents when I took the boat over. Yes - I am aware of Annex 8 of MGN 280.

Where do I stand with the French authorities if all I can show them is the charter agreement?

Should I fly a red ensign on an unregistered boat?

 

[Tranona]

Then you cannot take the boat to France as they will demand evidence (by way of at least an SSR) that it is registered in the UK.

Something does not sound right about this setup!

 

[Steve Clayton]

I'd have to go back and double check the registration aspects but as a minimum the vessel should be registered as a "pleasure vessel (less than 24 metres) in commercial use". If the vessel is company owned and chartered then it should be on Part 1 of the Register.

Also don't forget the coding aspects that should apply.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Nobody has come up with a single documented case of a British Yachtsman being fined or imprisoned for failing to produce an original registration certificate in France.

In spite of repeated claims that the offence of sailing a leisure yacht to France with no original registration certificate is punished with a fixed penalty nobody has given the offence code, nobody has stated the offence and nobody has given a consistent value for the fixed penalty fine.

FWIW, I took a charter boat to France last year with a photo copy of the registration document - I know of other firms who do not hand out original registration documents. So I'd say the practice is common but as to whether that is legal or not and what the punishment is if it's not... Until someone actually posts the legislation that requires visitors to France to have original registration documents, who knows?

Currently I'm assuming that as long as you're a British ship by the terms of the MSA you're fine with or without registration document and with or without being registered I've never seen the slightest evidence that's not the case.

Tranona: Please, please, please don't reply except with links to: The verifiable offence code, verifiable offence, the value for the fixed penalty fine, newspaper reports of a prosecution of a British yachtsman for this offence. I enjoy and respect many of your other posts and see little point in getting involved in arguments.

Should I fly a red ensign on an unregistered boat?

If it's British owned then according to the MSA it is a British Ship: https://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts1995/Ukpga_19950021_en_1 I'll leave you to decide if that definition in British Law means you should fly the red ensign in UK waters, and/or abroad. If in doubt just organise a race with only you in it from everywhere and to everywhere you go.

 

[Sailfree]

Nobody has come up with a single documented case of a British Yachtsman being fined or imprisoned for failing to produce an original registration certificate in France.

In spite of repeated claims that the offence of sailing a leisure yacht to France with no original registration certificate is punished with a fixed penalty nobody has given the offence code, nobody has stated the offence and nobody has given a consistent value for the fixed penalty fine.

FWIW, I took a charter boat to France last year with a photo copy of the registration document - I know of other firms who do not hand out original registration documents. So I'd say the practice is common but as to whether that is legal or not and what the punishment is if it's not... Until someone actually posts the legislation that requires visitors to France to have original registration documents, who knows?

Currently I'm assuming that as long as you're a British ship by the terms of the MSA you're fine with or without registration document and with or without being registered I've never seen the slightest evidence that's not the case.

Tranona: Please, please, please don't reply except with links to: The verifiable offence code, verifiable offence, the value for the fixed penalty fine, newspaper reports of a prosecution of a British yachtsman for this offence. I enjoy and respect many of your other posts and see little point in getting involved in arguments.

BALLS - I have stated on here a couple of times that while todate I have never been stopped in France I have personally witnessed the French inspecting all ships papers both in N Brittany - Treburden and in Carteret. On both occassions they had enough "catches" to delay them getting to me. In Carteret I went to speak to one skipper (CI register boat)that I saw being carted off. He explained that he had been taken by car to the hole in the wall machine to pay the fine (sorry but I forget the actual amount but think it was about 200Euros) so I don't need to quote links as I sympathised with him and shared a beer on the pontoon afterwards as I wanted to hear his first hand experience.

FACTS - I own a charter boat and never leave the original documents on board (in case of theft and trying to sell boat abroad). ALL the boats in our charter fleet on S coast have only photocopies and I am unaware of any having problems in France.

I think the reality of the situation is that the chances of being stopped are remote but it does happen (In my experience twice in about 55 trips) and for the 1st time ever I was stopped by UK customs about 20mls south of the needles this year and they wanted to see the ships papers and VAT receipt and search the boat. I suspect that the French use their discretion when it is a charter boat but are able to administer an instant fine if they wish for not providing the original of the shipspapers.

I admit that while I leave others to charter the boat with only photocopies of the ships papers when I go X channel I always take the originals.

I am surprised that the OP states some are unregistered as its always recommended to have part 1 on a charter boat and usually compulsary with the Marine mortgage company so that their financial interest can be registered. My understanding is that SSR was brought in by the UK (as a cheap alternative to Part 1) as the French just did not understand that boats could be unregistered.

As Steve Clayton states they should be MCA coded (which means having all the safety equipment aboard) so I would want to clarify what they mean by unregistered (unofficially chartered and hence cheap?)

 

[Boat44]

As above, I would seek clarification by what is meant by "unregistered". I suspect what they mean is she is not Part 1. I would be very surprised if she is not SSR.

From a charterers point of view, as long as it is coded, and the boat must carry this certificate, I would be happy. To be used commercialy she must by coded by law. If she is not I would drop a line to the MCA. Also, always take a copy of the charter agreement with you as well. This proves you have the right to the boat, should you be "stopped".

Separately, I have been advised that the boat sails with all original documents onboard as photocopies are not acceptable evidence. I'm fairly happy to do this as there were only ever 40 of our boat ever made, so the likely hood of her being sold on etc if fairly remote.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I don't need to quote links as I sympathised with him and shared a beer on the pontoon afterwards.

No doubt a chat on a pontoon is all the information you require, but for obvious reasons there will be others who would like to read the legislation or at least know the code and value of the fixed penalty fine so they could find the legislation themselves. Either of which would be more useful than an apocryphal anecdote.

As an aside, it must be very frustrating for the countless people who've met "someone" who's been given one of these fixed penalties that they are never able to recall any single detail that would allow the offence to be identified and thus easily verified.

 

[Sailfree]

No doubt a chat on a pontoon is all the information you require, but for obvious reasons there will be others who would like to read the legislation or at least know the code and value of the fixed penalty fine so they could find the legislation themselves. Either of which would be more useful than an apocryphal anecdote.

As an aside, it must be very frustrating for the countless people who've met "someone" who's been given one of these fixed penalties that they are never able to recall any single detail that would allow the offence to be identified and thus easily verified.

Sorry I can't give you the code/offence link. I merely saw him being interviewed (while waiting my turn for them to visit me), marched off, spoke with him on his return and shared a beer but appreciate that as what happened conforms to the RYA advice it does not conform to your view.

I made it clear that I think its a rare event but if all that does not satisfy you P*ss off and look up the legislation yourself but remember, like the Greeks treatment of visiting sailing boats, what the French Customs do may not conform to legislation.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Sorry I can't give you the code/offence link.

I'd guessed that!

what happened conforms to the RYA advice it does not conform to your view.

Is it really RYA advice never to read legislation that you are expected to comply with? I doubt it.

if all that does not satisfy you P*ss off and look up the legislation yourself

I can't because the legislation only exists in your head. It's fiction. You're making it up. Or if it does exist you don't know what it says or where to find it.

 

[westernman]

Sorry I can't give you the code/offence link. I merely saw him being interviewed (while waiting my turn for them to visit me), marched off, spoke with him on his return and shared a beer but appreciate that as what happened conforms to the RYA advice it does not conform to your view.

I made it clear that I think its a rare event but if all that does not satisfy you P*ss off and look up the legislation yourself but remember, like the Greeks treatment of visiting sailing boats, what the French Customs do may not conform to legislation.

The French Bloc Marine has a whole list of offences and the maximum fine/prison sentence associated with each one. Not having the original of your registration certificate is among the list of offences (fine - not prison) - however it is not clear whether this applies to all boats in French waters or only French registered boats.

Now what happens in practice may well be something very different - I have not been in French waters long enough to really find out. The French sometimes have a very lax attitude to certain regulations (e.g. triple parking on roundabouts) - US registration plates on cars, over due German export plates etc etc. I suspect a lot of it in the end depends on how much you piss off the official in question.

 

[Sailfree]

The French Bloc Marine has a whole list of offences and the maximum fine/prison sentence associated with each one. Not having the original of your registration certificate is among the list of offences (fine - not prison) - however it is not clear whether this applies to all boats in French waters or only French registered boats.

.

Thanks for being so helpful unfortunately Toady will not believe what I witnessed or you state unless youcan quote verbatum from the French Penal Code.

I've decided it must all be a figmant of my imagination as Toady is always right

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I've decided it must all be a figmant of my imagination as Toady is always right

It's easy to always be right, just check your facts before you claim something.

 

[snooks]

Play nicely now.....

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Play nicely now.....

All my posts come with a smile on my face!

I do think a "the law for cruising sailors" article would be good in a yachting mag. Ok you couldn't do the whole world but you could find a legal expert from a small selection of nations - France, Greece and one or two others.

Also wasn't there some talk a while back of a marine photography clinic on these forums? I thought that was a cracking idea - I want to make my compact take shots that are worthy of Beken - is that too much to ask?

My 2p worth!

 

[IanL]

As above, I would seek clarification by what is meant by "unregistered". I suspect what they mean is she is not Part 1. I would be very surprised if she is not SSR.

From a charterers point of view, as long as it is coded, and the boat must carry this certificate, I would be happy. To be used commercialy she must by coded by law. If she is not I would drop a line to the MCA. Also, always take a copy of the charter agreement with you as well. This proves you have the right to the boat, should you be "stopped".

Separately, I have been advised that the boat sails with all original documents onboard as photocopies are not acceptable evidence. I'm fairly happy to do this as there were only ever 40 of our boat ever made, so the likely hood of her being sold on etc if fairly remote.

My understanding is that the boats are not on the SSR. I can find no reference in the coding requireemnts for registration except as I quoted above where Annex 8 details the hand over procedures and includes the words "The Vessel's File should contain at least the following :-.......... 1 Registration Papers....."

I must stress that I am confident the boats comply with the coding requirements apart from this issue.

The nationality of the actual owner is another question as I believe some of the boats are managed by the charter company on behalf of individuals. Perhaps no ensign at all?

Why is sailing so complicated.

 

[snooks]

All my posts come with a smile on my face!

On the forum, no one can see you smile

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

On the forum, no one can see you smile

In space, no one can check your registration document!

 

[Tranona]

The nationality of the actual owner is another question as I believe some of the boats are managed by the charter company on behalf of individuals. Perhaps no ensign at all?

Why is sailing so complicated.

It is not complicated. The UN convention requires that when ships/yachts are in foreign territorial waters they must indicate their country of registration by flying the correct ensign and having evidence of registration. If they do not do so, then the foreign country may not abide by the principle of "comity" and require the vessel to comply with the registration requirements of the country. You can read all about this if you go on the RYA website and look at Taking Your Boat Abroad. It applies to all vessels whether privately owned, company owned or on charter.

However in the UK there is no legal requirement to register pleasure craft under 24 metres. So if it never leaves UK waters there is no need for registration.

However, it would be most unusual for a charter boat not to be registered for the reasons others have mentioned. Normally this would be on Part 1 unless it was owned by an individual rather than a corporate body where it would be possible to register on the SSR.

Any charterer would be foolish to take a boat abroad without the correct papers - in just the same way as it is for an individual. Despite what Toad says, the French in particular can and do apply sanctions and it will be against the skipper, not the owner.

 

[fireball]

The french are generally a law unto themselves ... I've not been 'stopped' yet, but take the orig papers onboard to ensure that if I am boarded I have suitable documentation to placate the official and avoid any attempt at on-the-spot fine - as my french is **** I can't argue back!!
Incidentally - in the marina I've been asked for passports and SSR 2 years ago, to this year - nothing! (well - except the berthing fee of course!)

 

[Robin]

We have been asked to show our registration papers at least once every year for as far back as I can remember, no hassle as we are always prepared. We were boarded in Isles De Glenan this August, on the same date as last year as the French customs man pointed out when he saw last year's 'fiche' to say we'd been checked still in my file. We have been checked in anchorages, in marinas and once at sea off Cherbourg (actually 13mls out...). We have also been boarded by HM Customs men in black from the big cutter off Poole.

Never had a problem as we always have original papers on board if we are going over the Channel, including passports, VAT proof, insurance and every other thing that might come up. However the registration papers are kept in a separate file in my navbag case from the other stuff so we only hand over what is asked for and nothing is volunteered. They always ask for Registration (we have Part 1) and passports, never been asked for anything else.

We also had a tow last year from the French lifeboat off Le Raz De Sein. They also asked to see our registration papers and our insurance before presenting us with a bill for 850 euros for the tow which was sent to our home address to be paid on our return. I rather suspect without those documents (they noted all the details) they might have wanted payment on the spot, but that is pure supposition.

I don't think it is worth playing 'UK rules the world' games with French or any other officialdom and think that the 'prove it' arguments from some on here are very poor advice.