Unlawful detention by a marina - locked in!

[pauldowrick]

Morning all,

Last summer, we arrived very late at the Lady Bee Marina, went through the lock and intended to leave the following morning at 4 o’clock, Sadly, on attempting to leave we were told we could not use the lock as the bill had not been paid and the office would not be open until 10 am.

After approximately an hour of messing around trying to get an Internet connection, we were able to pay online and allowed to leave 3 hours later than hoped.

But it raises an interesting question. Are they actually allowed to do that or is this unlawful detention / unlawful impending of the boat.

If we have not been able to leave until after 10 the weather window would’ve meant another five days at lady bee with a cost that we should not have expected to have.

I understand that people stay and leave without paying, but is this course of action by Marinas around the UK actually legal?

 

[michael_w]

No cash, no splash.

 

[pauldowrick]

No cash, no splash.

That’s very helpful. Thank you

 

[harvey38]

Whilst I have some sympathy with you, I think the detail is in small print and you didn't read it.

It's harsh treatment but a sign of the times and the pot of good will, where you could pay later has dried up with outstanding dues not being settled.

A bit like parking fines and clamping.

 

[Rappey]

Maybe similar to a carpark where you can't get out until you have paid. A garage repairing your car will not release it until the bill is paid.
i would think they are within their rights to hold the boat until you have paid for the services you used.
You were not detained, just the boat.

 

[pauldowrick]

Whilst I have some sympathy with you, I think the detail is in small print and you didn't read it.

It's harsh treatment but a sign of the times and the pot of good will, where you could pay later has dried up with unpaid dues.

I agree totally, but I wonder if it is legal. Not that I ever intend to challenge it.

 

[pauldowrick]

Maybe similar to a carpark where you can't get out until you have paid. You were not detained, just the boat.

Good answer. Thank you

 

[Slowboat35]

I doubt it. A petrol startion cannot detain you if you fill up and find you've forgotten your wallet, nor can they retain valuable goods (eg a watch) as surety. In that case istr as long as they have your registration and name - and again istr they cannot demand your address you may go on a promise to pay. If you do not eventually pay or did it intentionally then it becomes a police matter and recourse will be taken via the DVLA to the vehicles registered owner.
Id be very surprised if the same principle doesn't apply to a marina, especially if they have not provided the means for you to pay. As for this resulting in missing a weather/tide window there's no way I'd contemplate paying for a second day. In some marinas or harbours (eg Southwold) even a modestly late arrival and not very early start means you'll never find the office open. Are you supposed to wait until they do?

 

[chriscallender]

Morning all,

Last summer, we arrived very late at the Lady Bee Marina, went through the lock and intended to leave the following morning at 4 o’clock, Sadly, on attempting to leave we were told we could not use the lock as the bill had not been paid and the office would not be open until 10 am.

After approximately an hour of messing around trying to get an Internet connection, we were able to pay online and allowed to leave 3 hours later than hoped.

But it raises an interesting question. Are they actually allowed to do that or is this unlawful detention / unlawful impending of the boat.

If we have not been able to leave until after 10 the weather window would’ve meant another five days at lady bee with a cost that we should not have expected to have.

I understand that people stay and leave without paying, but is this course of action by Marinas around the UK actually legal?

I would imagine they have short term berthing terms and conditions and that there would almost certainly be a clause in that saying that boats can't leave with money owing. Whether you actually agreed to these terms and conditions is maybe open to debate since you presumably nevery signed anything on arrival but I'm sure they would claim that by staying the night agreement is implied. And to me they'd sort of have a point, the boat is on their property and payment for services hasn't yet happened so it doesn't seem unlawful to keep the boat until it does.

But in this day and age with everything based on online feedback and reviews, what a court would decide isn't very relevant from their point of view anyway. It would have been a lot more helpful if the guy operating the lock had been able to take payments or at least offer you a computer with a ready set up internet connection to make your payment, and the office hours aren't great either. Really there should be a very simple way that people can pay and leave when you want to leave, if a lock keeper is on site 24/7. Then no need to get into what is/isn't legal.

 

[servus]

The legal situation will be difficult to distill to the essence.
My brother in law, a lawyer used to say : "Possession is 90% of the law."

I guess they do it because they can. Full stop.

With a tidal lock to pass you are on the loosing side, a padlock could be negotiated with a boltcutter.
Also not too civilised but effective.

Cheers, G.

 

[johnalison]

It would be nice to know the legal situation but I have some sympathy for the marina which, like all businesses, often has to deal with dishonest members of the public. I remember seeing a printed notice in Calais listing a dozen or two non-payers from the international community. Ease of paying varies much from 24 hour service such as Cuxhaven to those places where someone turns up for an hour once or twice a day to take the money, but in the end, the responsibility for payment rests with us. I can only remember once being accused of not paying, and that was at the Sixhaven when all my attempts to get the touch screen to respond to my cold wet fingers failed, which I was able to prove to the HM’s amusement in the morning.

 

[Rappey]

Found this.

Harbours, Docks & Piers Clauses Act 1847

This Act applies to marinas that were created by special Acts of Parliament and are therefore usually commercial or fishing ports.

The marina can arrest or detain any boat that is berthed or stored in the marina in respect of which there are outstanding fees (known as “rates” under the Act). The boat can be detained until the fees are paid or, in the event that they are not paid, the marina can sell the boat. The marina is entitled to do so without the need for authorisation from the court. The action is taken against the boat and not the owner so it does not matter if the current location of the owner is not known by the marina.

To exercise the power, the marina must make a formal demand for the outstanding fees. If they remain unpaid, the marina can then arrest the boat by serving a notice that it has been seized in accordance with the Act. The notice is served by placing it on the boat. The notice should also be sent to the owner (if the marina knows where they are). If the fees are not paid within 7 days of serving the notice of arrest, the marina can have the boat valued by two independent valuers and sold. The proceeds of sale will be used to pay the outstanding fees and the marina will have to account to the owner for the balance.

 

[rogerthebodger]

You need to look at the UK consumer protection legislation, but again different people interoperate any legislation differently.

It's a tricky position as you seem to be unable to pay until 10 am when the office opened. The other point is where you invited to pay given an invoice or required to give your involve details when you arrived so the marina could bill you later.

Again, it's all due to the result of people not keeping to their commitments by paying for the services they receive.

As above notice needs to be given before an arrest can be made and the point is outstanding fees which depends on the terms of supply and payment

 

[pauldowrick]

An

Found thi
Harbours, Docks & Piers Clauses Act 1847

This Act applies to marinas that were created by special Acts of Parliament and are therefore usually commercial or fishing ports.

The marina can arrest or detain any boat that is berthed or stored in the marina in respect of which there are outstanding fees (known as “rates” under the Act). The boat can be detained until the fees are paid or, in the event that they are not paid, the marina can sell the boat. The marina is entitled to do so without the need for authorisation from the court. The action is taken against the boat and not the owner so it does not matter if the current location of the owner is not known by the marina.

To exercise the power, the marina must make a formal demand for the outstanding fees. If they remain unpaid, the marina can then arrest the boat by serving a notice that it has been seized in accordance with the Act. The notice is served by placing it on the boat. The notice should also be sent to the owner (if the marina knows where they are). If the fees are not paid within 7 days of serving the notice of arrest, the marina can have the boat valued by two independent valuers and sold. The proceeds of sale will be used to pay the outstanding fees and the marina will have to account to the owner for the balance.

 

[pauldowrick]

Excellent answer. Thank you

 

[38mess]

Yes you have to pay upfront these days. Years ago my boat was waiting to be splashed in a yard in W Wales and I didn't have the cash on me, they didn't accept card payments, so I had to drive 15 miles to a bank and get the cash. No way were they splashing without cashing

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I’d be pretty narked if I missed the tide or a weather window because they hadn’t provided the mechanism to pay. Arriving late and leaving early is perfectly normal in the maritime world, whether commercial or leisure. I wouldn’t go to a marina where that wasn’t possible, unless taking refuge.

 

[Alex_Blackwood]

I’d be pretty narked if I missed the tide or a weather window because they hadn’t provided the mechanism to pay. Arriving late and leaving early is perfectly normal in the maritime world, whether commercial or leisure. I wouldn’t go to a marina where that wasn’t possible, unless taking refuge.

He was able to pay online, couldn't that have been done earlier. As previously said, did he read the small print and be fully aware of the situation?

 

[Trident]

It's all too common sadly - the lock keeper in Chi was telling me they had a call a couple of weeks ago from Yarmouth about a motor yacht that had left without paying for fuel, damaged the dock on the way out and had , in conversation note the was heading to Chi Harbour so they were ringing around to give warning.

 

[Tranona]

Found this.

Harbours, Docks & Piers Clauses Act 1847

This Act applies to marinas that were created by special Acts of Parliament and are therefore usually commercial or fishing ports.

The marina can arrest or detain any boat that is berthed or stored in the marina in respect of which there are outstanding fees (known as “rates” under the Act). The boat can be detained until the fees are paid or, in the event that they are not paid, the marina can sell the boat. The marina is entitled to do so without the need for authorisation from the court. The action is taken against the boat and not the owner so it does not matter if the current location of the owner is not known by the marina.

To exercise the power, the marina must make a formal demand for the outstanding fees. If they remain unpaid, the marina can then arrest the boat by serving a notice that it has been seized in accordance with the Act. The notice is served by placing it on the boat. The notice should also be sent to the owner (if the marina knows where they are). If the fees are not paid within 7 days of serving the notice of arrest, the marina can have the boat valued by two independent valuers and sold. The proceeds of sale will be used to pay the outstanding fees and the marina will have to account to the owner for the balance.

Interesting - but not sure that Lady Bee marina was established through a specific Act, which is what gives such marinas that power. Commercial marinas operate under general law and they do not have the power to sell without going to court.

The term that Lady Bee is using could be challenged as an unfair contract term but doubt it would be successful. What is unusual for a marina is that it has a means of preventing a boat leaving so the analogy with gated or barrier controlled parking is good - and I don't think that has been considered unlawful. The only real issue is whether the term was communicated clearly or was clearly implied as it is in a gated car park where a ticket is issued which is the key to leaving.