Unknown classic clinker sailing dinghy- help please

Even Chance

Even Chance

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Hi folks,
I have just obtained an old dinghy, and would like to find out what it is. It is clinker construction, with an alloy mast. It is 12ft long, with an steel/iron hinged centreboard. The sails are very old, brown in colour with the insignia IF, or 1F, and the number 628. The sail bag has “Ratsey and Lapthorn", "1954" on it, with the letter F above the number 1294.
The foredeck comes back to the mast step, with a small breakwater on it. There are two slatted side seats with copper buoyancy tubes beneath them.
Any ideas?

The guy told me it was a Royal, but endless googling has drawn a blank.

I cant post photos yet, asw I wont be picking the hull up until the weekend.

Help please...:)
 
A bit more digging has come up with the class "Firefly" that has an F insignia. Maybe the IF is a bit of a confusion.
Were they clinker? All the pics I see are not clinker.
 
The Firefly is / was cold moulded, unless there was an early clinker version which I doubt, I think Uffa Fox designed her cold moulded to start with as that was his thing.

I suspect as the Firefly was also 12', this boat has at some stage gained a Firefly main.

It's a while, but I don't remember Fireflies having anything but 'F' on the sail.

I see the numbers on sail and bag are different, though quite possibly I think both from a Firefly; when you say the sails are brown, do you mean deliberately ( synthetic 'tan' ? ) or through age ?

Could possibly be an early National 12 ?

Thing is, the Firefly had a foredeck, pretty sure the National 12 did not; the boat is probably neither.
 
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This is a good resource.
When you say clinker, do you mean a proper overlapped clinker construction or just that it is made of wood?

International12.jpg
firecrest.jpg
firecrest3.jpg
N12mk8.jpg

The point about the sail being wrong could be very likely. I have had a couple of older boats with the wrong sail number or wrong insignia.
 
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I meant to ask, what do you mean by 'copper buoyancy tubes ' ? Actual buoyancy tanks made of copper ?

I remember Fireflies, and no doubt other dinghies of the period, had metal ( could have been copper, memory fades ) vertical probe type self bailers...

I just looked up the Firefly and National 12.

Your boat is definitely not any Firefly, they were always smooth hulled, hot moulded originally then cold moulded ( with grp option ) after 1975.

The National 12 looks a lot more promising though, the early ones were clinker, and they were decked, my memory was playing tricks.

Might be worth your googling 'National 12' then click 'about the 12' and see what you think; I tried but could not get the images to post here.
 
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That is an International 12. The middle two are a Firecrest
All from the database I linked to.
If you right click on the pics and choose properties the images have helpfully been named.
 
Hi guys,
She is proper clinker construction, but doesnt have the huge wide stern of the National 12. It looks like the pics of the Vintage National 12's on the web, but it doesnt have any side decks. I reckon it could be National 12 myself now.
Im picking her up tomorrow. (weather permitting!!) will post photos when I get her for positive ID.
The sails are pretty much knackered, so I will have to look for replacements. I'd like to have tan replacements as well. Can old sails be found cheap anywhere? Im not after racing laminates!!!;)
 
There are places advertising secondhand sails, but from experience buying new kit from the main advertiser I won't ever go there again, nor do a lot of other people at my club.

Secondhand sails are usually the ultimate false economy, you could get a set of basic no frills new sails which would get the most enjoyment out of the boat, and you'd be able to specify colour ( I think coloured sails like tan cost around 10% extra ).

The chances of finding secondhand sails to fit your boat must be pretty low; and NB the National 12 is a development class, so there may be a lot different with older boats, depending on the rules; wherever you get sails it will be a case of having your particular boat's rig dimensions and a tape measure for secondhand, or carefully specifying with new.
 
Hiya, here is a photo of the dinghy.
It is 12 foot 4 long. I know the snow is hiding it, but you will get the idea.
The hood ends have sprung, but that can be sorted easily. Likewise the transom parting company from the strokes. It also needs a new deck, and possibly add side decks.
I want a smaller rig than it originally had, just for pottering with the family on the lochs. The rig should also look kind of "old fashioned", maybe with a wooden mast/bowsprit etc. I can make masts and the likes.

Anyone have a positive ID on her, and ideas/help for the restoration.
 
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Unless it's the photo, she looks pretty wide forward and shallow hull / freeboard for an early National 12, don't think she's one of those.

As to saying something useful like what she actually is, you've got me for the moment !

Will have a look through some old books.
 
I have now repaired the snipe trailer that she came with, and it is back in my garage for a better inspection and to dry out. The transom needs replacing, as does the stem and deck so far.

After lifting the ply foredeck, there appears to be an extra taft just in front of the mast position, and another mast position for what appears to be a wooden mast ahead of that. Does this say the same to you? It would appear to me that the foredeck, and rear mast position were not there once, and it had some different kind of rig? A dipping lug? Cat rig? what???
I would like to find out more about her history and how she would have looked originally.
There is an old wooden name board that says "Frolic" "PBSC" that came with her, but there are no numbers/makers plates in the hull that I can see so far.

Here are some photos to see if anyone can help me please.

What is it?
How would it have looked originally?
What rig would it have had?
Any ideas what I should do with it looks/rig wise? I am trying to get a a cheap Mirror rig for it unless anyone knows better. I want safe and stable, not fast and furious!

This cost me nothing, and everything will be done by myself. I have plenty of the time and skills necessary to fix her up.
 
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Whatever she is it isnt a National 12 ! I would think it likely to be a one off & none the worse for that! A Mirror rig would be fine, cheap as chips & lots about!
 
Looking at that bizarre aft mast step and the thwart beneath it , and the forward mast step with the little battens it's attached to, plus the large knees supporting the centre-board case I would think it wasn't built as a sailing dinghy, but as a rowing boat.

Just a thought.
 
Hi guys,
Thanks for the response. She aint bonny, but she was free, and will be forced to float once again. Cheap/free is my way of doing things. I wish she was a bonny Tideway or similar.:o
I did think it was built as a loch fishing rowing boat. The forward mast position and its associated supports is made from the same mahogany as the rest of the boat. It may be original, but the centerboard could well have been a later addition. I have seen many old photos of loch boats that had sails, but no centerboards.
I plan on leaving it totally open with three useable tafts as original.
I have removed the rear mast support already (it practically fell out itself!)
I will then remove the centerboard and hose out the accumulated rubbish of leaves etc that is laying in her bilges.
I can then start on making a new 3/4" multiply transom so she can take a wee outboard. The original is 1/2" mahogany. I will cut the planks 1/2" shorter to give fresh wood to attach the new transom, and add a thickness doubler around the bottom of the new transom to help spread the loading better.

A new stem is to be made from a larch fencing post, with more depth to help the hood ends attach to more area. Stainless screws and Cascamite should hold it all together nicely.
I measured her up last night and did a 10th scale drawing. I am about to play with different rigs and see how they look after balancing the C.L.R. and C.E. locations

Its only a wee project to keep me going through the winter evenings anyway. I have an E-Boat for my summer sailing fix.
 
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