Ultrasound dieslbug killer

OldBawley

OldBawley

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Diesel bug. Our tanks are infested, I know of some yachts cruising Greece who have the same problem .
Acquaintances had big portholes made in there steel tanks, cleaned tanks and fuel lines, so all was well until last month when they had a new load of fuel. Infested again.
I have a magnetic fuel filter – algae killer installed ( It was free ) and know now what I suspected already, it does not do what it is supposed to do.
The percentage of bio fuel added to diesel in Greece is very high, in this cowboy land anybody can do what he likes and get away with it. The price of sunflower oil is a lot less than the price of diesel and huge amounts of used frying oil are produced. Just guess what happens with it.
We like to live and cruise Greece so no, I will not change cruising area just because of some dirty diesel. I expect more and more problems with dieselbug, and just last week read about a Belgian firm claiming to have developed an ultrasound system ( Low power for yachts ) that would kill and clean fuel tanks and lines. They do industrial and agricultural tank cleaning to. Claim the ultrasound breaks down the bacteria cell wall and so killing it.
Anyone know if this could be the solution to bacteria in fuel ?
 
OldBawley said:
The percentage of bio fuel added to diesel in Greece is very high, in this cowboy land anybody can do what he likes and get away with it. The price of sunflower oil is a lot less than the price of diesel and huge amounts of used frying oil are produced. Just guess what happens with
Click to expand...

Do you have any evidence of this? I would suggest that it is highly unlikely that a garage would put dirty chip fat into their tanks to sell to the public. And I think we would all be noticing the smell if they did.
 
No, I have not seen a garage put dirty fat in their tanks.
Remember the dioxin scandal in Belgium in the eighties? Old and recycled engine and transformer oil was used to produce chicken food.
I have a relative who had a used frying ( and any other ) oil recycling plant. He explained to me what was done with the tons and tons of used oil gathered in the Benelux.
The frying oil was filtered and resold to restaurants and fish and chips shops. Depending on what was more profitable, the product was sold to others who mixed it into heating oil. Heating oil is the same as diesel.
The problem is not how the bacteria get into the diesel, the problem is the danger of stopping engines. Just look at the other diesel thread, the problem is there. Accidents will happen.
Most sailors have no clue of what lives in the tanks, many are just hiring, however are depending on the engine all the time.
Turnover and biocide are no solution for cruising sail boats. I sail whenever possible, the engine is used very little. The tanks are infested already, I have the biocide but if I put the stuff in now, the dead bacteria will clog the filters anyway. In our case cleaning the tanks manually is not possible.
That is why I think the ultrasound device could be a good solution. The manufactures ( http://www.harsonic.com/home.html ) claim that even the fuel lines are cleaned.
 
I find it difficult to believe that the ultrasound device can deal with a bug infestation without leaving some sort of residue. If there is a residue it will still end up in your filters. The residue is where I would focus my questions on the maker and look for credible answers
 
RobbieW said:
I find it difficult to believe that the ultrasound device can deal with a bug infestation without leaving some sort of residue...
Click to expand...
Ultrasound will help in breaking any residue into smaller pieces.

A mate of mine uses diesel produced from waste oil in his car. Fully processed with methanol and all the right gear, but it still smells like a fish and chip shop.
 
nigelmercier said:
Ultrasound will help in breaking any residue into smaller pieces.
Click to expand...

Fair enough, so the theory is that the small pieces pass through the filter and burn off in the engine? Thats pretty much what Marine 16 biocide is designed to do. You still need turnover to clear the tanks of the residue, whether thats burnt off or collected in the filters. Running the engine sort of polishes the fuel anyway as some returns to the tank having passed through, probably, two grades of filter.

I've been using biocide for about 3 years now on every fill, something like 1600hrs running. I'm pretty sure there was bug in one tank when I bought her, the filters havent blocked but I keep an eye on them - so far no blockages.
 
OldBawley said:
Most sailors have no clue of what lives in the tanks, many are just hiring, however are depending on the engine all the time.
Turnover and biocide are no solution for cruising sail boats. I sail whenever possible, the engine is used very little. The tanks are infested already, I have the biocide but if I put the stuff in now, the dead bacteria will clog the filters anyway. In our case cleaning the tanks manually is not possible.
Click to expand...
Water will inevitably enter your tank over time, from condensation and contamination. Once water is lying in the bottom of your tank, the probability of "diesel bug" developing is high - even without bio fuel. A means of removing the dregs is therefore essential if you want your engine to be reliably available.

If you can't physically clean the inside of the tanks, then either you will need moderate diameter drain tap from the lowest point of your tank, or a means of pumping the tank out from the lowest point. I used a (manual) pump designed to remove sump oil from a dipstick hole, with a suitably long pipe which had a slight bend to enable it to be poked into the lowest corner of the tank. The tank happened to have a dipstick. If not, it's usually easy to insert a suitable fitting.

Part of the annual service was then the pump out dregs after the boat had been sitting static for a while. Horrifying to see what came out first time. Then go for diesel bug treatment.

The alternative is to block your fuel filters with diesel bug sludge when starting your motor after the first rough passage of the season.

I would like to see an independent set of tests of an ultrasound device before even considering them.

I'm afraid I do not trust marketing statements made by manufacturers of instant remedies. Consider chlorophyll to remove smells (goats eat the stuff all day), antistatic wicks on cars to cure motion sickness (how come motion sickness affects people on boats, no static there!), ultrasonic sound devices to deter mosquitos (sure, you can't hear the sound, especially if it's not being created!), fuel pipe fittings that improve MPG (can't think why manufacturers don't fit them already . . .), copper bracelets . . . and so on.
 
Spoke to some French sailor who has the “Bug “ problem to. He uses a throw away in-line clear filter before the water separator / filter. Just like the in line gasoline filters but bigger. He told me the bug problem is well known in Italy to and there they use these in-line filters as a precaution.
The filter looked much to coarse to be effective. The Italian mechanic who solved there problem after the engine stopped at a very inconvenient moment ( Not every sailor can purge and restart a Perkins ) advised the French sailor to change the in-line filter as soon as dirt was visible.
He had no switch over / double filter system.
Same person who had portholes made in the tanks. He cleaned the tanks with alcohol, some time later he had a Greek bowser delivering fuel, the day after, tanks heavily contaminated. The Sh** came clearly out of that mini tanker.
 
would a stocking placed in the filler neck help,so filtering the fuel before it enters the tank,ok it will take longer to fill up but hey ho
 
If ultrasound works, I would think the most likely mechanism would be that it keeps the water content emulsified so that there is nowhere for the bacteria to grow.
 
OldBawley said:
Diesel bug. Our tanks are infested, I know of some yachts cruising Greece who have the same problem .
Acquaintances had big portholes made in there steel tanks, cleaned tanks and fuel lines, so all was well until last month when they had a new load of fuel. Infested again.
I have a magnetic fuel filter – algae killer installed ( It was free ) and know now what I suspected already, it does not do what it is supposed to do.
The percentage of bio fuel added to diesel in Greece is very high, in this cowboy land anybody can do what he likes and get away with it. The price of sunflower oil is a lot less than the price of diesel and huge amounts of used frying oil are produced. Just guess what happens with it.
We like to live and cruise Greece so no, I will not change cruising area just because of some dirty diesel. I expect more and more problems with dieselbug, and just last week read about a Belgian firm claiming to have developed an ultrasound system ( Low power for yachts ) that would kill and clean fuel tanks and lines. They do industrial and agricultural tank cleaning to. Claim the ultrasound breaks down the bacteria cell wall and so killing it.
Anyone know if this could be the solution to bacteria in fuel ?
Click to expand...


Having suffered similar problems on a few occasions, I would recommend a QL Decontaminator (Volvo) it has solved all my problems and a few other boats as well. ( I know it's magnetic but it does work it cleared all the bug in my tanks, I didn't clean them completely)All the rescue services, customs & Guarda Civil boats in the Canaries have them as standard. Along with loads of other filters.

If it's purely a problem related to frying oil there are chemicals used to convert it to useable diesel that could be added, It's so long ago that I looked at making my own fuel that I forget.

Baja filter also helps but slows refueling.
 
I have already a magnetic “ filter “ installed. Some 15 years ago I run a chandlery. I was preparing our boat for a longer trip and standard practice was to get a free sample of anything I bought ( And sold ) That way I obtained the Alg** X. It consists of an aluminium housing with a strong magnet inside. Extremely expensive for what it is. Apparently most commercial fishing trawlers in the Netherlands used them, the bug problem was well known to them.

When our boat was completely restored in the 70s, two big galvanised steel fuel tanks ware installed, the cockpit later rebuild around them. No way getting them out without cutting the boat in two. Big tanks for the new big engine, the yacht effectively working as a shrimp trawler in those days.
Two years ago I discovered the bug in our port tank, and build the magnetic filter into the fuel line.
The fuel is circulated through that “ Magnet” and the filters by the engine fuel pumps, theoretically polishing the fuel.
The bug problem remains, tanks can not be cleaned.
Starboard tank is empty since we sail the boat, use the engine as little as possible.
Used 60 litres of diesel last year, been full time liveaboard and I do not mean fixed in some marina or on a mooring.
Now I read that the new diesel with added bio has only three months shelf life. !!!!!!
Was hoping that ultra sound would be a way to destroy the bug, it sounds a lot more plausible than the magnetic thingy. Unfortunately the innovation award winning firm is vague about diesel bug, just mention there instrument solves the problem by destroying the cell wall.
Someone suggested turnover, so I intend to construct a new small diesel tank, bit like the outboard tanks. In 25 years of sailing we never motored for more than 70 miles, that is 40 litres. Top opening for inspection and cleaning. I already have a big plastic chlorine container stashed away. A shame the space of the two times 80 litres tanks cant be used. Maybe later cut holes in the sides and use the tanks as storage for tools.
The baja filter is a must. I always buy our fuel at road stations and found dirt in the jerry can more than once.
Standard procedure before lifting the anchor is opening the tap of the water separator. Each time I wonder how an engine can run on the s**t coming out of there. Change the filter element of the Separ filter each three months, the fine filter on the engine each year.
 
Only last week i visited a small factory in the UK that is developing, as a sideline, a sytem that polishes the diesel fuel 24 hours a day 365 days a year in situ aboard the boat.
It requires tapping into the bottom of the tank and returning the fuel to the top.
A solar panel, that if i remember correctly only needs to power 1/2 an amp? (very small, possible match box size), powers a small pump that trickles the fuel through the filtration system constantly. It never stops going.
They reckon they can manufacture and sell for about £450
It filters down to 10 micron (if i remember correctly)
I hope to find out more as it develops.
P.S. they also confirmed from their experience of talking to fuel polishing operators around the UK that there is a great variety of fuel blends on sale that the unwary buyer can put in his tank if he is shopping purely on price or happens to buy his fuel from a profit orientated outlet. Bio fuels seem to be the culprit.
 
Polishing the fuel is one thing. Unfortunately this does not affect small pieces of the dark stuff stuck in various remote areas in the tank waiting your next uncomfortable sailing to come out and clog even the line itself. A few years back my perk stopped by blockage only a month after a diy fuel polish. I ended up cleaning the tank with hot water detergents and a pump with a not so fine filter circulating the water for hours. I was amazed to see new discoveries each time I renew the hot water and soap. And of course I now use a disposable 1 euro filter before water trap filter, the one lorry tracks use. This has proved invaluable
 
OldBawley said:
Spoke to some French sailor who has the “Bug “ problem to. He uses a throw away in-line clear filter before the water separator / filter. Just like the in line gasoline filters but bigger. He told me the bug problem is well known in Italy to and there they use these in-line filters as a precaution.
The filter looked much to coarse to be effective. The Italian mechanic who solved there problem after the engine stopped at a very inconvenient moment ( Not every sailor can purge and restart a Perkins ) advised the French sailor to change the in-line filter as soon as dirt was visible.
He had no switch over / double filter system.
Same person who had portholes made in the tanks. He cleaned the tanks with alcohol, some time later he had a Greek bowser delivering fuel, the day after, tanks heavily contaminated. The Sh** came clearly out of that mini tanker.
Click to expand...

The general advice here is to avoid filling tanks directly from bowsers if you can. Fill cans and then filter those into your tank. If you need too much fuel for the cans you have then invest in a fuel filtering funnel. When we use ours the bowser drivers often complain bitterly because it really slows the fuel delivery rate and they hate standing around. Also be wary if you call or ask for fuel to be delivered to the quay and they ask you how much fuel you want. If you say 200 litres then that's all they'll put in the bowser so you end up sucking the dregs out of the bottom of their tank. We generally ask for 50 litres more than we need and apologise profusely on delivery for over-estimating.

BTW. I've heard the used cooking oil story before and whilst there may be some truth in it in some places I think it's largely mythical. In Greece now the government meters the fuel delivered by petrol stations and compares that with the electronic till receipts, so they'd soon spot dosing with large quantities of cooking oil. I don't think cooking oil makes you any more liable to "the bug", their spores(?) are airborne so they get in to the tank through the air breather, any water in the bottom of the tank and they'll thrive. They live in the water/fuel interface using the fuel for food.
 
Last edited:
gnatsis said:
Polishing the fuel is one thing. Unfortunately this does not affect small pieces of the dark stuff stuck in various remote areas in the tank waiting your next uncomfortable sailing to come out and clog even the line itself. A few years back my perk stopped by blockage only a month after a diy fuel polish. I ended up cleaning the tank with hot water detergents and a pump with a not so fine filter circulating the water for hours. I was amazed to see new discoveries each time I renew the hot water and soap. And of course I now use a disposable 1 euro filter before water trap filter, the one lorry tracks use. This has proved invaluable
Click to expand...

I can imagine that without the fuel sloshing around a very gentle trickle feed polisher wouldn't get the "dark stuff" and other bits of crud that i have seen coming out of some of the tanks, however, the mobile unit my friend uses returns the polished fuel under pressure which is designed to stir up the fuel, sludge and water in the tank so that the suction pipe gets anything that passes by at the time. The manufacturer recommends running the machine long enough to run the fuel through the filters at least 3 times.
From what i have seen in action it will get anything that can be lifted off the bottom to circulate in the flow. Its not unlike the action seen in your pint glass in the pub when it is being poured.
It achieves this by using a shorter lance to suck up the fuel and a longer one to pump it back under pressure. Tghis longer lance touches the bottom of the tank and has a bevelled exit so that pressurised returned fuel is squirted out down and sideways.
Moving the suck and return lances to all corners and middle seems to do the trick.
OK it can't scrape the sides but if a tank needs that level of cleaning its a bigger and more expensive job.
Fuel polishing will remove 99% of the free standing water (and the diesel bug slime that lives at the interface of the water and fuel) and anything dead that has sunk to the bottom or is floating around in suspension.
I have discussed with him the possibility of making a whisk that could be inserted and powered by a hand held drill in order to really stir the tank contents up before the polishing process takes place, just in case there is something sticking to the sides but getting something useful through the filler hole is the problem.
So far the current operation seems to be working fine and all boat owners have been delighted.
Those that see the water and goo coming out are astonished and happy to see the back of it, while those that have perfectly clean fuel are reassured when the polish reveals nothing.
Sometimes, though, although the glass filter bowls show nothing at first when left overnight there is a settlement and dense, dark material appears at the bottom of the bowls in the morning ready for draining off.
Early days but very interesting.
 
hartcjhart said:
would a stocking placed in the filler neck help,so filtering the fuel before it enters the tank,ok it will take longer to fill up but hey ho
Click to expand...
In the olden days and in some of the live ablard books I read, they used to filter ALL fuel nefore it went in the tank. Just a big final witha fine mesh is good.
Stu
 
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