Ultraflip or Kong with chain link to anchor

[stranded]

I have both, to be used with 8mm G70 chain. The Ultraflip saddle does not fit over the shank of my Bugel anchor so does not provide a straight pull. If I use the Kong I will use a 3 link 12mm chain between swivel and anchor to mitigate the side pull problem. But the Ultra is supposedly the stronger swivel. Would I therefore be better using that with the 3 link chain or would eg the saddle prevent this from working well. Experience or just thoughts welcome.

 

[Bobc]

What's wrong with a shackle?

 

[stranded]

I am aware of the arguments, so let’s just assume I am misguided and wish to use a swivel There is actually a logic, even if it is my own unique version - because it appears to be the most streamlined way to retain as much strength as possible when stepping up from 8mm chain to a decent size shackle on the anchor. Those fancy french shackles sold by Jimmy Green would be perfect except that they are huge and I doubt would reliably go through my stem-slot anchor roller without jamming.

 

[Neeves]

I am aware of the arguments, so let’s just assume I am misguided and wish to use a swivel There is actually a logic, even if it is my own unique version - because it appears to be the most streamlined way to retain as much strength as possible when stepping up from 8mm chain to a decent size shackle on the anchor. Those fancy french shackles sold by Jimmy Green would be perfect except that they are huge and I doubt would reliably go through my stem-slot anchor roller without jamming.

Look at Anchor Rights flip link or Vikings version, which are both derived from my Boomerang. ARs version has been tested and is 3 times stronger, being made from 800mPa steel, than the 'equivalent' G30 chain. Have a look at G100 Omega links or G100 hammerlocks and try them at the retail outlet for size (you may need to take 3 links of chain and the anchor with you). You will find omega link and hammerlocks at any outlet service the lifting industry (if you draw too many blanks ask Zoidberg (PM) he has been through a similar exercise). For chain - again look to Zoidberg he is using a special G80. chain from Crosby/Gunnebo.

The hammerlocks and omega links will be painted buy 2 and when the first one gets a bit rusty swap, clean of the rust (it will be superficial) and paint with a rust resistant paint. I have seen gal versions but have no idea of a source.

The Boomerang has no moving parts, does not detract from anchor performance (a problem with all swivels). If you are handy you could make your own Boomerang, I'll provide a link later for the dimensions. You can fashion one in half a day. You need a piece of Duplex plate, 8mm, an angle grinder and a decent bench drill. The correctly made Boomerang will be 8mm wide, much thinner than any known swivel and anything beefy reduces anchor performance as the beefy components resists burial in the seabed.

A decent 3/8th: shackle from Crosby, available from Tecni in the UK, is a G80 quality, stronger than your chain and the same size as any other 3/8th" shackle (available from your local hardware store or chandler - but these offerings are at best a G40 quality). Stick to reputable brands for shackles, Crosby, Yoke, Peerless - NONE others.

I'll include some pictures later, 12 hours time, but I'm a bit time short currently.

Jonathan

 

[stranded]

Look at Anchor Rights flip link or Vikings version, which are both derived from my Boomerang. ARs version has been tested and is 3 times stronger, being made from 800mPa steel, than the 'equivalent' G30 chain. Have a look at G100 Omega links or G100 hammerlocks and try them at the retail outlet for size (you may need to take 3 links of chain and the anchor with you). You will find omega link and hammerlocks at any outlet service the lifting industry (if you draw too many blanks ask Zoidberg (PM) he has been through a similar exercise). For chain - again look to Zoidberg he is using a special G80. chain from Crosby/Gunnebo.

The hammerlocks and omega links will be painted buy 2 and when the first one gets a bit rusty swap, clean of the rust (it will be superficial) and paint with a rust resistant paint. I have seen gal versions but have no idea of a source.

The Boomerang has no moving parts, does not detract from anchor performance (a problem with all swivels). If you are handy you could make your own Boomerang, I'll provide a link later for the dimensions. You can fashion one in half a day. You need a piece of Duplex plate, 8mm, an angle grinder and a decent bench drill. The correctly made Boomerang will be 8mm wide, much thinner than any known swivel and anything beefy reduces anchor performance as the beefy components resists burial in the seabed.

A decent 3/8th: shackle from Crosby, available from Tecni in the UK, is a G80 quality, stronger than your chain and the same size as any other 3/8th" shackle (available from your local hardware store or chandler - but these offerings are at best a G40 quality). Stick to reputable brands for shackles, Crosby, Yoke, Peerless - NONE others.

I'll include some pictures later, 12 hours time, but I'm a bit time short currently.

Jonathan

Thank you for taking the time to set this all out Jonathan. I’m not though really up for buying yet more hardware. In the absence of any views on the Ultra with a chain between swivel and anchor I think I will go with the Kong, preferably with a chain link if I can find a shackle that will beat the 2000kg break strain of the directly attached Kong lateral load limit, fit through my 50mm wide stem roller and be wide enough to allow proper articulation of the 12mm chain link - which is a serious challenge. Thanks again.

 

[Neeves]

Its really no problem. Some with the expertise provide chapter and verse on Lithium, from which I learn, I try equally volunteer on more mundane topics. A shackle or an Omega link costs peanuts, cost is not the issue finding components that fit AND have the correct WLL is the issue.

A 3/8th" shackle from Crosby has a WLL of 2t, as do SOME other sources, Peerless, Campbell and Yoke. Crosby shackles you can source from Tecni in Bristol and Yoke opened an office recently in the UK. All, I think, 3/8th shackles are to the same size - but different WLL - so you can test for fit, in your stem roller, by buying a cheap one and then throw it away and having decided it will fit - buy one with a 2t WLL. This is a cross section of 3/8th" shackles, the yellow pinned shackle is only WLL of 1t the others are all WLL 2t and you can see the clevis pin accepts the chain which is 8mm. Though the shackles are the same, or very similar, dimensions the yellow one has 50% of the strength of the others. Your mother told you, 'looks are superficial - its what's inside that matter'!! Don't be tempted into thinking you can skimp on WLL thinking 2t is excessive. If the shackles locks up in the slot and the yacht veers, change of wind direction, then a shackle loaded at 90 degrees has half the strength and at 45 degrees loses 25% of strength (I've tested it - its about right)


A Boomerang can be 8mm wide so not an issue, its thinner than chain and swings with the veers.. If you need an enlarged link then there are variants on Omega links and hammer locks, see below, which are of a thinner profile

This is a cross section of Boomerangs, I made the dark grey ones, bottom left and top right from 800Mpa steel the silver one is Duplex stainless I had made and the 'middle' dark grey one is from Anchor Right that I had galvanised. The numbers refer to the thickness of the steel plate from which they were cut. If you have G70 8mm chain these Boomerangs are grossly over strong.



Apart from shackles you can use a variety of devices from the lifting industry. These are ones for which I stripped the paint to allow galvanising.



A modern anchor when it sets buries the fluke and the shackle end (and chain) at roughly the same time. Anchor makers now go to great lights to use HT steel which allows the shank to be thin - because a thick shank reduces the ability of the anchor to set deeply. Spade and Vulcan have profiled shanks to allow the thin of the shank to bury first (though evidence suggests this is a waste of time - its the thickest part that determines resistance (but that's another story). So a big chunky swivel will reduce anchor performance.


I admit to having a weight fetish but this extends to trying to make a 'thin' rode. The thin rode weighs less, so 6mm G100 HT chain has better strength than G30 8mm chain and is more skinny and lighter.

I also looked at tension angles, as tension angle determine anchor performance (as well as scope) and as an anchor buries the shackle resists burial, its angle to the seabed increases - so though a thinner shackle is not possible - a thinner rode also helps. I spent time measuring rode angles - and in the image below I had anchored, let the tide recede and then dug out the buried rode to measure the angles - but you can see the chain to the right of the image and the top of the Boomerang, roughly, centre in the image - a big fat swivel would not bury as well as the skinny Boomerang - which if correctly attached sits vertically in the seabed. But the image shows - the chain also buries.

I have an article on tension angles and the impact of beefy rode components - waiting to be published.



Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

I have both, to be used with 8mm G70 chain. The Ultraflip saddle does not fit over the shank of my Bugel anchor so does not provide a straight pull. If I use the Kong I will use a 3 link 12mm chain between swivel and anchor to mitigate the side pull problem. But the Ultra is supposedly the stronger swivel. Would I therefore be better using that with the 3 link chain or would eg the saddle prevent this from working well. Experience or just thoughts welcome.

These are the specific Crosby shackles you need.

Crosby® 209A Alloy Screw Pin Anchor Shackles | Crosby®

The smallest shackle in the series is a 3/8th" with a WLL of 2t. Peerless (and maybe Yoke) do the same quality of shackle in smaller sizes - but I don't know how you source them in the UK. Gunnebo/Crosby and Peerless are now part of Crosby Kito and there is an office in the UK. You cannot buy this quality in this size (they are available in much larger sizes) from Van Beest of Green Pin fame. Oddly chandlers simply don't seem to stock Crosby shackles even though they are rated best available. Campbell in the US (who have a marine focus in their marketing) make the same quality, but again I don't know how you source them in the UK.

Effectively all other shackles of a 3/8th" size are at best 1t WLL. Many will be unrated, untested without a brand name. If you have any - chuck them - then you will never mix them for a decent shackle. Remember if these nefarious shackles are loaded at 90 degrees you half the WLL and its then only 500kg - less than the WLL of 8mm G30 chain.

I have been buying my Crosby shackles from Tecni in, I think, Bristol. There will be, are, other sources - send a PM to Zoidberg - he has been through the exercise for sourcing from the UK.

I note you are going to use 12mm chain between swivel and anchor but don't say why 12mm (which is huge). What's wrong with your G70 8mm or, again, ask Zoidberg he bought some galvanised Gunnebo 8mm G80 and he should be able to tell you how to get a 3 link sample from Crosby/Gunnebo. I also note the saddle of the swivel does not fit over your anchor - which is a good thing - the saddle increases the length of the shank and it may be possible that the exa length when side loaded would bend the shank of your Bugel anchor (not knowing what the shank is made from).

Jonathan

 

[stranded]

All very valuable info, thanks Jonathan. Does the 50% wll strength reduction for a 90 degree angle apply equally to the break load. So the Crosby would have a break load of what, 3000kg at 90 degrees?

The reason I am contemplating 12mm chain is because the Wichard Allen Key 12mm d shackle I am contemplating using (wll 1200, break load 6000kg) will not fit through 10mm chain - I will be putting the pin through the anchor - it has a smallish, round hole, not a slot - so the fat end of the shackle must fit through the chain - it does, just, with 12mm.

I am not contemplating using 8mm for the Kong to anchor link because there is no way to install a suitably strong shackle except the Maillard omega link, but that overall is way too wide to fit through our anchor roller, and the wire is too big to fit theough the attachment hole in the anchor shank.

So I will look at the Crosbys. although the hidden pins of the Wichards are pretty persuasive given the limitations of the 50mm anchor roller, which cannot realistically be increased because it must pass through the stem.

 

[Neeves]

All very valuable info, thanks Jonathan. Does the 50% wll strength reduction for a 90 degree angle apply equally to the break load. So the Crosby would have a break load of what, 3000kg at 90 degrees?

The reason I am contemplating 12mm chain is because the Wichard Allen Key 12mm d shackle I am contemplating using (wll 1200, break load 6000kg) will not fit through 10mm chain - I will be putting the pin through the anchor - it has a smallish, round hole, not a slot - so the fat end of the shackle must fit through the chain - it does, just, with 12mm.

I am not contemplating using 8mm for the Kong to anchor link because there is no way to install a suitably strong shackle except the Maillard omega link, but that overall is way too wide to fit through our anchor roller, and the wire is too big to fit theough the attachment hole in the anchor shank.

So I will look at the Crosbys. although the hidden pins of the Wichards are pretty persuasive given the limitations of the 50mm anchor roller, which cannot realistically be increased because it must pass through the stem.

All shackle if side loaded suffer the same or very similar strength degradation and all reputable shackles makers point out this characteristic in their documentation.

The Crosby shackles, in the link above, have a safety factor of 4.5:1 and the break load is thus a minimum of 9t. I have tested some and can confirm this is accurate the shackles I tested failed, straight line pull at 10t (metric tonnes). I have not tested all shackles at 90 degrees, but the ones I have tested failed at 50% of specified break load.

If I understand you correctly the Crosby shackles are better option than the one you describe.

Having a round hole not a slot in an anchor shank is unusual but not unheard of. Many of the owners here who follow my suggestion also request I spend time working through their issues and when fitting a Boomerang I was faced with the problem you appear to have. We resorted to a shackle of a similar specification to the Crosby shackle back to back with another shackle.

So, in your case a Crosby 3/8th shackle with its pin through the hole in the shank and another identical shackle, so bow to bow, with the second shackle having its pin through the chain. It is possible that the shackle with its pin through the shank hole could be loaded at 90 degrees, so reducing min break load to 4.5t.

Your alternative is to source and buy a 8mm or 10mm G80 (better a G100) Hammerlock from a retailer of lifting equipment.

The 'weakest' would be a 8mm G80 which would have a 2t WLL and a break load of 8t - with no restriction on loading angle. But they tend to be wide and may not fit the bow roller cheeks. If you use an 8mm hammerlock you will n to need the second shackle as an 8mm hammerlock will fit your chain.

https://www.gunneboindustries.com/L...s---Classic/Couplers/Coupling-link-G-Classic/

You also need to try a hammerlock in your anchor to make sure the hammerlock fits the circular hole. But the hammerlock does not have the big eyes, that the clevis pin fits through, and may articulate in the hole.

Downside to Hammerlocks,

They are powder coated, not galvanised (or I have not found a source of galvanised hammerlocks).

They are a bit of a faff to instal, you need to hammer the pin in (hence 'hammer' lock) and when they get a bit rusty you will want to chop it off and use a new one (so buy 2)

I suspect you will not want to use a hammerlock, I have used them but I chop and change as I test things or ideas and they are bit inconvenient to disassemble.

These are all 6mm components and 6mm chain, because that's what I used.

A Hammerlock on a Boomerang with an Omega link as an alternative. When I downsized chain from G30 8mm to G80 and G100 6mm chain and components I used omega links as the enlarged links at the end of the chain. All of these components meet their specification but if you buy cheap ones (commonly from China) they meet specification but the components are chunky, more steel. So Gunnebo, Pewag, Crosby, Peerless, Rud, Van Beest are all very neat - but a bit more expensive.



Hammerlock on a Viking anchor


If you want to remove a hammerlock you need a punch (or an angle grinder)


Jonathan

 

[vyv_cox]

All very valuable info, thanks Jonathan. Does the 50% wll strength reduction for a 90 degree angle apply equally to the break load. So the Crosby would have a break load of what, 3000kg at 90 degrees?

The reason I am contemplating 12mm chain is because the Wichard Allen Key 12mm d shackle I am contemplating using (wll 1200, break load 6000kg) will not fit through 10mm chain - I will be putting the pin through the anchor - it has a smallish, round hole, not a slot - so the fat end of the shackle must fit through the chain - it does, just, with 12mm.

I am not contemplating using 8mm for the Kong to anchor link because there is no way to install a suitably strong shackle except the Maillard omega link, but that overall is way too wide to fit through our anchor roller, and the wire is too big to fit theough the attachment hole in the anchor shank.

So I will look at the Crosbys. although the hidden pins of the Wichards are pretty persuasive given the limitations of the 50mm anchor roller, which cannot realistically be increased because it must pass through the stem.

I have been using a Wichard countersunk 10 mm 17/4PH shackle through my 10 mm three-link chain for almost 20 years. The last time I looked Wichard no longer supplied this shackle in 17/4PH, only 316, so it would be necessary to check its strength against those still made in this material. I accept that these are not as strong as those Jonathan advocates but they are as strong or stronger than 8 mm chain and mine shows no sign of deformation despite considerable use.

 

[NormanS]

Without writing a whole essay about it, why not attack the round hole in the anchor with a drill and file, and make it a slot. That would save a lot of grief.

 

[Neeves]

Without writing a whole essay about it, why not attack the round hole in the anchor with a drill and file, and make it a slot. That would save a lot of grief.

Norman you have defined the issue succinctly. My remedy was more drastic and would not be accepted, as the proposed investment has to be low.

Your proposal is sound and the argument that the remedy would leave ungalvanised steel does not hold up as the gal round the shackle hole or slot soon wears away. Similarly any rust is soon worn away.

Retire the Bugel anchor in favour of something more conventional and possibly more reliable.

Watch on eBay - anchors, that effectively don't age, are often offered at sensible prices.

Jonathan

 

[stranded]

Blasphemy. There is in my experience no anchor that is more reliable than a Bugel. It may be an ugly plug of a thing, but we love it. More pertinently, Vyv identified the slot itself as a significant cause of shackle and connector snagging - indeed that seemed to be a major driver towards his anchor link solution. So I’ll stick with my little hole thank you - it is the shackles that are deficient, not the anchor!

 

[Neeves]

Blasphemy. There is in my experience no anchor that is more reliable than a Bugel. It may be an ugly plug of a thing, but we love it. More pertinently, Vyv identified the slot itself as a significant cause of shackle and connector snagging - indeed that seemed to be a major driver towards his anchor link solution. So I’ll stick with my little hole thank you - it is the shackles that are deficient, not the anchor!

I love it! Another lover of anchor threads.

Can you offer me the link where Vyv said the anchor slot was a significant cause of shackle snagging (and that he implied that because of this shackles are deficient).

Jonathan

 

[stranded]

I love it! Another lover of anchor threads.

Can you offer me the link where Vyv said the anchor slot was a significant cause of shackle snagging (and that he implied that because of this shackles are deficient).

Jonathan

Vyv ided the slot. I just hate shackles.


Swivel problems and solutions

“There is another, far more common way in which bending loads can be applied to a swivel. This is due to another characteristic of modern anchor designs with plate shanks, which commonly have a slotted hole for attachment of the eye part of a shackle, allowing the shackle pin to pass through the last chain link. It is all too easy for the swivel to slide down this slot and become wedged, with the result that a bending load is applied to it.”

 

[vyv_cox]

Vyv ided the slot. I just hate shackles.


Swivel problems and solutions

“There is another, far more common way in which bending loads can be applied to a swivel. This is due to another characteristic of modern anchor designs with plate shanks, which commonly have a slotted hole for attachment of the eye part of a shackle, allowing the shackle pin to pass through the last chain link. It is all too easy for the swivel to slide down this slot and become wedged, with the result that a bending load is applied to it.”

I first came up with the three chain links idea after recovering my Delta (at the time) several times with the swivel wedged in this way. It seemed quite possible that the displacement had occurred on first setting the anchor, meaning that we had been lying to this highly undesirable cranked swivel arrangement.

 

[stranded]

Still wrestling with this I came across a thread from a few years ago which seems to be the best solution for my situation and just wanted to check I am not missing something crucial.

Peterson 10mm 17/4 high tensile stainless shackles with flush Allen key pins. D shackle pin through anchor shaft hole, crown to crown bow shackle with pin through 10mm chain 3 links to Kong attached to 8mm g70 chain.

So if my assumption in the first question below is correct, that would make the Kong the weakest link at 5t straight pull break load, with the risk of a jaw levering side load much reduced; 6t for the Petersen shackles including a 50% discount for 90 degree load; 7+t for the main chain; 6.5t for the 10mm g40 chain link. Which is not perfect but seems as good as I am going to get while still being able to reliable get the whole through the boats 50mm wide stem slot anchor roller.

My questions.

Peterson certify WLL 2t for the 10mm shackle, with a safety factor of 6 - does that mean a notional break load of 12t?

Wichard say their 17/4 shackles are not to be used for mooring purposes. Given that Vyv has successfully used one of those for years, I assume this means not for permanent immersion and that anchoring should be fine?

The Petersen pins do not appear to be self locking like the (weaker) Wichards - do I use permanent or medium loctite?

 

[Neeves]

Vyv ided the slot. I just hate shackles.

Everyone or almost everyone, uses a shackle, somewhere, in their rode to join the rode to the anchor. Considering the numbers used the number of failures is insignificant.

There are exceptions, I and a few others (here on YBW) have used hammerlocks I have not made a long term, lifetime, practice of using hammerlocks - they are good to have in your quiver. I prefer shackles and Omega links (with the omega link simply being an enlarged link to allow the use of the shackle).

But after a failure (by someone else) I never used a swivel, a Boomerang I found a better option. I never used stainless shackle they simply cost too much and don't offer any benefit over a decent alloy steel shackle.

Swivels don't only fail because they do not follow Vyv's advice

Anchor Swivels: Caution Required - Practical Sailor

Failures of shackles does occur but failure of reputable shackles Crosby, Peerless, Campbell, Yoke to a Grade B specification (check the detail on, say Crosby's 209a detailed specification, see below) lacks documentation.

• G-209A Screw pin anchor shackles meet the performance requirements of Federal Specification RR-C-271G, Type IVA, Grade B, Class 2, except for those provisions required of the contractor

There is no need to 'hate shackles' specifically alloy shackles, Grade B that are readily available and relatively cheap

Jonathan

 

[stranded]

Everyone or almost everyone, uses a shackle, somewhere, in their rode to join the rode to the anchor. Considering the numbers used the number of failures is insignificant.

There are exceptions, I and a few others (here on YBW) have used hammerlocks I have not made a long term, lifetime, practice of using hammerlocks - they are good to have in your quiver. I prefer shackles and Omega links (with the omega link simply being an enlarged link to allow the use of the shackle).

But after a failure (by someone else) I never used a swivel, a Boomerang I found a better option. I never used stainless shackle they simply cost too much and don't offer any benefit over a decent alloy steel shackle.

Swivels don't only fail because they do not follow Vyv's advice

Anchor Swivels: Caution Required - Practical Sailor

Failures of shackles does occur but failure of reputable shackles Crosby, Peerless, Campbell, Yoke to a Grade B specification (check the detail on, say Crosby's 209a detailed specification, see below) lacks documentation.

• G-209A Screw pin anchor shackles meet the performance requirements of Federal Specification RR-C-271G, Type IVA, Grade B, Class 2, except for those provisions required of the contractor

There is no need to 'hate shackles' specifically alloy shackles, Grade B that are readily available and relatively cheap

Jonathan

Yes but… they won’t fit through my anchor roller, hence my proposed compromise.

If I use your recommended Crosby or similar, I will be safe because I won’t be able to launch the anchor so will be in a marina. The best solution for me is one that will work on my boat. I would like to be able to anchor when conditions are kind, so would value your view specifically on the solution I have proposed - in particular does a 6:1 safety factor on a 2t wll shackle mean a nominal 12t break load?

Simply repeating what you know about other solutions that can’t work for me is of purely academic interest in the context of this thread, though I hope may be of use to others.

 

[NormanS]

All my anchoring has been, and still is, with bog standard mild steel galvanised chain. I presume that is termed G30.
With chain of that grade, it is easy to enlarge the end link, using a tapered drift and a hammer. This makes it easy to use an oversized shackle.
Is it feasible to do the same with chain of higher grades?
Like Mr Neeves, I use a "bent link" (similar to his boomerang, but in my case made of round bar with an eye at each end). This automatically rotates the anchor to the correct orientation, which a swivel does not. But, each to their own.