UK Sailors And Expats In The EU - Run Up To Friday 29th March 2019 & Beyond?

[nortada]

Despite the title, this thread is not what it may first appear to be.

As this thread seeks to inform and help those of us who live in or keep our boats in the EU to keep abreast of events and thinking in our host countries and in Brussels, please leave the all of the boisterous debate on the pros and cons in Anything Brexit, otherwise I fear that the Moderators will be left with no choice but to transfer this thread to Anything Brexit or just close it.

Aware of forum policy regarding Brexit, I am reporting this thread so the Moderators are fully in the picture.

Now to the topic.

Garold's messages (# 10 & #17 below) got me thinking and following an exchange (for me) of very informative PMs, we agreed that I would float this thread here.

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?505801-This-Forum-And-Project-Fear✔️

To get the ball rolling, Garold may like to post some of the thoughts he expressed on the future in Greece in his PMs in open forum. I am more than happy he includes any of my thoughts in my PMs.

When we left Portugal in March, there was a very strong sentiment at the highest levels in the Portuguese Government that, not only did they wanted all of the Brits in Portugal to stay, but would welcome all newcomers with open arms. Their very generous tax concessions to Brits buying property confirmed this. Sailfree is an expert in this area.

It was suggested all Brits should take Portuguese Residensia, were life that simple!

The British Ambassador to Portugal joined Portuguese MPs to give a number of seminars to the expat communities to confirm this sentiment. Unfortunately, I was out of country so was unable to attend but hope to go to future ones in The Fall.

The rub is that in March, we left Portugal for Southern Cyprus so all of my information is dated but (to comply with the 183 day rule) we hope to return to Portugal at the end of September and I will make every effort to report back on this thread what I find out, make observations and in the best possible taste, politely voice opinion.

One observation in Cyprus was that the expat community were largely unconcerned and property sales were going well. Mountain may be able to shed light on the latest in Cyprus.

Moderators - I am sure we would all be very grateful if you keep us on the straight and narrow.

Now folks over to you.

 

[ANDY_W]

As I understand it, after 29/3/19, assuming no special arrangements, the UK will become a '' third country '' with respect to the Schengen area.

This means that UK citizens visiting the Schengen area will be limited to a total of 90 days in any period of six months. For example, if someone enters the Schengen area on 1/5/19 and leaves on 29/ 7/19, that person will not be able to enter any
country in the Schengen area until the end of November.

For me, having spent the last few years cruising Holland and the Baltic May to October and keeping the boat in Holland, that means that I will have to take the boat back to the UK because, after commissioning and de-commissioning time I will have 7 or 8 weeks cruising time instead of 17 or 18.

The only hope is that the '' negotiating period '' of 21 months actually happens, and, with any luck, that will have to be extended.

With regard to Portugal, if the UK becomes a third country, I cannot see that the EU will permit a country to ignore the Schengen
rules. Anyone who normally spends more than 90 days there would be well advised to seek a legal right to stay. I suspect only property owners will be able to apply, those living on boats will be unlucky.

Andy

 

[Sailfree]

I can only echo Notada's comments.

We moved to Nazare Portugal 2.5yrs ago. Reasons were weather, cost of living on silver coast, note 60% of Algarve (marina berth €1600pa, UK £11600pa), friendliness of Portuguse people.

Portugal welcomes ex-pats who are retired and financially independant as they are bringing their money from another country and spending it in Portugal and improving their economy.

I am aware of a number of US citizens moving here.

To encourage this and assist getting settled in Portugal they will grant NHR status that means your pension income is tax free for 10yrs. This does not apply to UK civil servants and Services pensions that the UK tax at source. Nor rental income from UK property as I know to my cost!

All info to date is that Portugal economy benefits from this and would like it to continue (other EU countries not so keen to see German/French citizens get pensions in Portugal tax free but this has nothing to do with Brexit)

My info is that current situation is that up to Brexit you can move to Portugal and automatically get 5yr residency. This is usually automatically renewed. The alternative if Portugal did not assist UK ex-pats would result in a collapse of their property market and seriously affect the building trades for maintenance.

After Brexit indications are Portugal would want to keep current situation but nothing is certain (what if UK expelled Portuguese workers!)

I suspect Spain is in a similar situation BUT politics over Gibraltar may muddy the water.

We love it here and I hope to get a Portuguese passport (dual nationality is allowed) once my Portuguese language skills are good enough.

Note my comments are for people that live in Portugal with a residential address either by renting or purchase and get a NIF (fiscal - tax- number). While we have our boat in Nazare we also have our apartment here. I do not know what the situation will be for live aboard except comment that generally Portugal will welcome people that spend money that improves the Portuguese economy and I think that will continue. Appreciate others comments in that unique situation of live aboard in a Portuguese Marina.

Schengen does not come into it once you get a residency certificate. Turn up at town hall with proof of address, passport and IIRC €12.

There is a great web site here full of useful info and social events "Silver Coast my home"

Trust the above is useful and AFAIK accurate. Whatever the schenegan rules are the above is how it works now and I expect in the future.

I would add that I used to work for a French owned International Pharmacuetical Company and I have found UK suffers from gold plating EU rules and generally UK citizens worry about the rules. In my experience both France and Portugal are pragmatic and use the rules that suit them but will enforce rules against stroppy individuals. Agree with authority, be polite, smile and most times you can just carry on - yes different from UK where we follow all rules religiously.

Unfortunately Brexit is a big unknown even as to whether the UK will reach an exit agreement or even exit - at present we all can only speculate whatever our individual wishes.

 

[nortada]

As I understand it, after 29/3/19, assuming no special arrangements, the UK will become a '' third country '' with respect to the Schengen area.

This means that UK citizens visiting the Schengen area will be limited to a total of 90 days in any period of six months. For example, if someone enters the Schengen area on 1/5/19 and leaves on 29/ 7/19, that person will not be able to enter any
country in the Schengen area until the end of November.

For me, having spent the last few years cruising Holland and the Baltic May to October and keeping the boat in Holland, that means that I will have to take the boat back to the UK because, after commissioning and de-commissioning time I will have 7 or 8 weeks cruising time instead of 17 or 18.

The only hope is that the '' negotiating period '' of 21 months actually happens, and, with any luck, that will have to be extended.

With regard to Portugal, if the UK becomes a third country, I cannot see that the EU will permit a country to ignore the Schengen
rules. Anyone who normally spends more than 90 days there would be well advised to seek a legal right to stay. I suspect only property owners will be able to apply, those living on boats will be unlucky.

Andy

Hi Andy,

Many thanks for your input and kicking off the discussions.

Since launching this thread I have had an increasing number of PMs applauding this initiative but with all of the incessant mauling that goes on in Anything Brexit, understandably folk are reluctant to ‘expose themselves’ in open forum.

Clearly, this forum will be only as useful as the contributors make it.

Now to the points you raise.

Certainly your's is one take of the future but to my knowledge, in Portugal there are a number of non EU nationals on boats and ashore, who do not have residencia and spend far more that 90 days contiguous in Portugal. Some are from the US and I suggest that Post Brexit, Brits would be subject to at least similar or depending how the negotiations go, possibly better treatment.

Yes they have to get a visa but that done, their existence appears to be much the same as we longer-term EU visitors.

As I understand it, visas are issued by the host nation, not EU and they are issued under a variety of national rules. I believe American visitors to Portugal can get a 6 month visa from France that can be used in for a 6 month stay in Portugal.

I am lead to believe that liveaboards can get residencia in Portugal but hope somebody can confirm this.

Currently, the Portuguese Government is encouraging all British expats to get Portuguese Residencia, which would permit continuous residence in Portugal but I am unsure what impact that would have on status and rights as a UK citizen and would Brits with Portuguese Residencia be able to travel freely between Schengen States?

If push became shove and we had to choose between Portugal or the UK, I anticipate, with great regret, we would plumb for the latter but hopefully it won't come to that - at least until the end of the transition period in Dec 2020.

Question, questions and hopefully out there there will be the answers, if not yet, as Brexit progresses.

Unfortunately, as is often the case, much of this is conjecture so the aim of this thread is to establish the current situation and if possible provide any advice and discuss the future.

Sorry if this is post is a bit disjointed but I have had to keep breaking off to respond to a load of informative PMs. Hopefully these authors will feel they are able to share their thoughts in this wider venue.

 

[macd]

Currently, the Portuguese Government is encouraging all British expats to get Portuguese Residencia, which would permit continuous residence in Portugal but I am unsure what impact that would have on status and rights as a UK citizen and would Brits with Portuguese Residencia be able to travel freely between Schengen States?

You may know this, Nortada, but not everyone will:
In the 'divorce' phase of Brexit negotations lat December, it was agreed that UK nationals formally resident in an EU27 state would retain that right at the time of Brexit. The right would be limited to the EU state of residence and would not represent full freedom of movement: Schengen '3 months in 6' terms would apply for the rest of the EU, although some powerful voices within Brussels expressed the hope that it would be extended.
('Time of Brexit' wasn't quite pinned down: the UK regarded it as March 2019; the EU as the end of any transition period.)

Regarding your other point about exceptions to Schengen visa terms on the part of individual EU countries: this is a fact. In most cases it hinges on obligations created by older treaties by the member state in question.

A few other random thoughts generated by my own experience:
Health insurance is another unresolved concern. David Davies stated a year or more ago that the UK gov desired to remain within the EEA EHIC scheme. This was formally reiterated in the white paper agreed at Chequers recently. (Granted, that has been widely trashed both in the UK and EU27, but it remains the nearest the UK has to a stated policy.) To the best of my knowlledge there has been no opposition to that expressed by EU representatives. However, even those tentative desires may well not survive a no-deal brexit.

Also on the subject of healthcare, but for anyone considering formal EU residence: if EHIC rights survive, so will pensioners' Form S1 entitlement to national health service rights in the country of residence. This also acts as a guarantee of UK NHS entitlement for non-UK resident Brits, without time limit. (It may even survive for existing S1 holders in the event of a no-EHIC Brexit.) I recall reading on here that the S1 application process is a something of an ordeal in Portugal. I wouldn't know about that, but found it both straightforward and worthwhile in Italy. Since it's free, I'd urge anyone considering re-locating to explore it.

Driving licences: full UK driving licences can currently be exchanged as of right for local ones by new residents in the EU28. That may end next March. So, unless you plan on taking a test in a language you're not very fluent, which you'll probably fail, get your local licence before then.

As ever, the bottom line for most of these issues is to wet a digit and hold it up to the breeze. Or simply hold up a digit to your culprit of choice

Finally, well done for seeking a fact-based run-down on Brexit. I have my doubts that it will remain that way but hope for the best,

 

[jordanbasset]

As I understand it, after 29/3/19, assuming no special arrangements, the UK will become a '' third country '' with respect to the Schengen area.

This means that UK citizens visiting the Schengen area will be limited to a total of 90 days in any period of six months. For example, if someone enters the Schengen area on 1/5/19 and leaves on 29/ 7/19, that person will not be able to enter any
country in the Schengen area until the end of November.

For me, having spent the last few years cruising Holland and the Baltic May to October and keeping the boat in Holland, that means that I will have to take the boat back to the UK because, after commissioning and de-commissioning time I will have 7 or 8 weeks cruising time instead of 17 or 18.

The only hope is that the '' negotiating period '' of 21 months actually happens, and, with any luck, that will have to be extended.

With regard to Portugal, if the UK becomes a third country, I cannot see that the EU will permit a country to ignore the Schengen
rules. Anyone who normally spends more than 90 days there would be well advised to seek a legal right to stay. I suspect only property owners will be able to apply, those living on boats will be unlucky.

Andy

Agree, unless you have or get residency that will be precisely the situation. I am aware of US citizens I know having to move back and forwards to Turkey and other non E.U. countries to comply with the Schengen rules. Also in Spain some US people we met over winter had to do the same
Still hoping we do allow reciprocal freedom of movement in any deal.
Health insurance cover will be another big one, as may of us are getting older and some have pre-existing health conditions such long term insurance would not be cheap. It is fairly reasonable at the moment but that is because most if not all Health insurances will say you should use your EHIC, if that is no longer applicable premiums will go up

 

[Tony Cross]

Further to macd's points above, and for those cruising in or living in one specific EU country, there are a couple of other useful things you might want to do.

EU registration. Under EU rules we are all allowed up to 90 days in another EU country with no formalities at all, after that period we are supposed to 'register' with the host country. This apparently is because a country has a right to know who is living there for more than the normal 90 days. Many EU countries don't enforce this rule however.

I think that post-Brexit a country is possibly more likely to look favourably on your desire to stay if you've already registered there. In my view it shows both a commitment to that host country and a willingness to abide by the rules. It costs nothing to do in any case.

Tax registration. I would suggest visiting a tax accountant and talking over the possibility of registering with the tax authorities in your host country and obtaining a tax number if possible. You can still pay tax in the UK, since (nominally anyway) that's where you are ordinarily resident, so the tax returns in your host country would show no tax to pay there (under double taxation rules).

Again I think that post-Brexit being tax registered could make it more likely your host country will look on your request to stay more favourably. It also makes it easy for you to start paying tax in your host country post-Brexit instead of in the UK - I think that's going to be inevitable whatever arrangements are made between the UK and the EU.

Personally I think everything you can do in your chosen host country to be 'on the books' there is a plus, especially if we end up with a no-deal Brexit.

 

[sailaboutvic]

What Mac and Tony have said make a lot of sense the problem arises for any of us that don't live in one country and are cruising from country to country register in one country isn't going to help them .
has already said by Mac , it would only be limited to the EU state of residence and would not represent full freedom of movement.

I for seen this problem quite a lot of years go well before the vote when may people said there no chance of us ever leaving the EU and got dual nationality,
I glad I did , in my case I only got to see if leaving the boat under U.K. Registration is going to cause me a problem or not , if it does I be looking at going under Dutch flag as my partner is Dutch .
It's all ifs and buts at the moment , we can only hope some thing is sorted to all out satisfaction or we come to our senses and withdraw from the idea of leaving , which seen very unlikely , but then leaving the EU some years back was also very unlikely .

 

[Bouba]

Hi Nortada
I'm not a cruiser but live permanently in France. We own property pay tax and have been here for over a decade. But we have never formalised our residency. While my wife is fluent my French is dire.
The problem, as i see it, is that France is the leading protagonist in the negotiations and possibly could take a hard line or just pretend nothing has happened. The argument that it will decrease their tax revenue or crash the property market doesn’t hold water as the French are quite able to cut off their noses to spite their face.
So, we will continue to live here, enjoy the boating and the ambiance all the while I’ll study my French. And if they kick us out (or more likely, refuse us entry after we’ve visited the UK) so be it. Only time will tell

 

[Yngmar]

Since I got PM'd to contribute here:

We'll probably reflag the boat this winter, as the future of the red ensign is looking quite gloomy. Despite having started cruising in the UK, neither of us is a British citizen, so no problem there (we've both happily kept our other EU citizenships), but reflagging has its own set of hassles. We need to get a new registration, cancel the SSR (being unregistered for a while between those times, as the new requires any other to be cancelled first), scrape numbers off the boat and stick on new ones in different locations. Already picked a "Port of Origin" which we'll then need to sticker on the back somewhere too. Then we hopefully get the new certificate in the mail to wave at authorities.

Then it gets really annoying with radio licenses, as we need to register for a new MMSI and program it into our radio equipment, which manufacturers make idiotically difficult. Will have to talk to Matsutec on how to clear the MMSI on our HP-33a and I have some instructions on how to maybe clear Simrad/Raymarine radios with some soldering, but will see if those work on our sets when the time comes.

Oh, and then stick a new flag on the back. That's the easy part and we already bought it last year when we ordered some courtesy flags anyways. The old was fading in the sun anyways (and the EU flag tore at the corner - how symbolic).

We then may have to replace some safety kit and whatnot to match our new flag state requirements. Haven't really looked into those yet. Makes one really wish there was a EU boat registry and one set of rules, instead of all this silly your-country my-country kindergarten. The EU flag is prettier than any of the other two anyways.

And finally, we'll probably have to find a new insurer, as I doubt Pantaenius UK will want us if we're no longer UK flagged, and in any case it'll probably be difficult if money needs to flow in either direction.

As for how things will work if you're no longer a EU citizen, just ask any of the US or Canadian cruisers in Europe? They've been doing this for a long time. There's only a few of them from what we've seen, but somehow they seem to manage it too.

 

[Tranona]

Since I got PM'd to contribute here:

We'll probably reflag the boat this winter, as the future of the red ensign is looking quite gloomy.

Not sure what it is that leads you to this conclusion.

The flag state of your boat has absolutely no effect on your freedom to move the boat within the EU. That is solely dependent on the boat being considered a "EU" boat. The evidence required for this is payment of VAT, or in some states such as Portugal and Croatia which also may require/accept a T2l which is the EU form declaring goods are of EU origin when moving across states. It is not intended for boats but for commercial shipments, but HMRC will issue one on request (details on the RYA site). There is no requirement for a VAT paid EU boat to be even registered in the EU. Registration and flag state are governed by international maritime law, not the EU.

Your future problem with your registration is that you may cease to be eligible for the SSR as you may no longer meet the residency requirements, so renewal may be problematic. Registration in most states require either nationality or residence, or both, although you may be eligible to register the boat in the Channel Islands.

Like all the other things being discussed here there are a number of different scenarios for the future, and if there are new rules for "UK" boats there are different ways of defining what a "UK" boat is, but I doubt that flag state on its own will be a determinant when residence and nationality of owner and particularly VAT are far more important.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Not sure what it is that leads you to this conclusion.

The flag state of your boat has absolutely no effect on your freedom to move the boat within the EU. That is solely dependent on the boat being considered a "EU" boat. The evidence required for this is payment of VAT, or in some states such as Portugal and Croatia which also may require/accept a T2l which is the EU form declaring goods are of EU origin when moving across states. It is not intended for boats but for commercial shipments, but HMRC will issue one on request (details on the RYA site). There is no requirement for a VAT paid EU boat to be even registered in the EU. Registration and flag state are governed by international shipping law, not the EU.

Your future problem with your registration is that you may cease to be eligible for the SSR as you may no longer meet the residency requirements, so renewal may be problematic. Registration in most states require either nationality or residence, or both, although you may be eligible to register the boat in the Channel Islands.

Like all the other things being discussed here there are a number of different scenarios for the future, and if there are new rules for "UK" boats there are different ways of defining what a "UK" boat is, but I doubt that flag state on its own will be a determinant when residence and nationality of owner and particularly VAT are far more important.

I hope your right , as that's the card I am playing ,
why being a U.K. tax payer and be able to pass the rules to have a boat on the SSR registration and with dual Nat I hoping I can carry on as usually .

 

[RAI]

Oh where to begin? Most aspects have been covered already, I'll try a ramble.
I guess at the moment most live-aboards are treated as tourists and get 90 days but nobody bothers to check, as long as there is no tangle with the authorities.
People deciding to move residence are supposed to give the local authorities notification, within about a week of getting an address, that they want to stay and apply for an ID card or a certificate of residence. I gather, one can own property and have that ownership registered but still not be resident, just a tourist to one's own home.
The rules for EU nationals seems to be fairly uniform under the "freedom of movement" conditions. Pensioners, students, are treated as a different class compared to those who should be seeking work. That said, there seems to be a lot of different local/national rules and enforcement is lax.
For non-EU citizens, it seems the Schengen Visa is the only EU rule, otherwise national ones apply, which might date back to pre-EU bi-lateral agreements.
Those people who are already registered as resident in another EU country before the Brexit deadline (what ever that turns out to be) are going to be treated differently from those who want to change residence after the deadline (and presumably returning home will still be a right.) Getting one's foot in the door by registering residence in the EU prior to the Brexit deadline might be a good idea for some, as it looks like after about 5 years, the opportunity for dual nationality becomes available.
Requirements are often quid-pro-quo, so if EU citizens need to go though a settled status procedure to become resident in the UK, then it seems likely that the EU27 might have a similar requirement for UK citizens wanting to establish their residency. Though that is probably what the EU27 currently do, as most have an ID card system that the UK lacks.
Somehow I don't see the EU27 making a special "half-in" rule for the UK, but who knows. That would mean getting a (Schengen) visa with the 90/180 day rule for Brits. which again might be treated loosely by the local authorities,
All these problems go away for those of us that have got dual nationality (one still in the EU). There may be a snag. Several EU states only accept dual nationality with another EU state. So after Brexit, might one be asked to give up one of the nationalities? I hope not.

 

[Graham376]

To encourage this and assist getting settled in Portugal they will grant NHR status that means your pension income is tax free for 10yrs. This does not apply to UK civil servants and Services pensions that the UK tax at source. Nor rental income from UK property as I know to my cost!

There's no need to get into the Portuguese tax system regardless of what the rules say. We pay U.K. taxes and totally ignore the Portuguese system.

To open a bank account or own a car/motor cycle, a fiscal (tax) number is needed, for which a boat yard address will suffice. Having a fiscal number does not require tax returns.

It's easy to obtain 5 year residency at the local authority by proving - with utility bills if renting or, property papers if owned or, 2 Portuguese witnesses to swear you live at the address.

Permanent residence can be applied for when the 5 year local expires (or maybe before) at SEF, the immigration department. My permanent residence card states "Permanent Residence" "Citizen of the European Union". After Brexit, the second statement will be incorrect so, whether just the wording or my status will change, I don't know. Although my wife is a Portuguese national, I have no intention of giving up British nationality.

Boat status should be secure as it has EU VAT paid status so free to move around. If we leave EHIC, private health insurance will be required for visitors but not sure what will happen with residents. Although we have never contributed, both of us are on GP books at local health centre.

 

[Tranona]

I hope your right , as that's the card I am playing ,
why being a U.K. tax payer and be able to pass the rules to have a boat on the SSR registration and with dual Nat I hoping I can carry on as usually .

Vic. Suggest you read the latest eligibility rules for the SSR as they have changed. Being a taxpayer is no longer sufficient (not that it ever was, just sort of assumed). The definition of "resident" is much more clearly defined and you may not meet it.

 

[Kukri]

A slightly different angle, but within the scope of the topic, I hope:

It’s generally a good idea to match income and expenditure, and certainly assets and liabilities, in currency terms.

As the UK moves further from the EU, there is a possibility that the Pound will follow a different course to the Euro.

But my pensions are all in Sterling. I may not be alone, here.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Vic. Suggest you read the latest eligibility rules for the SSR as they have changed. Being a taxpayer is no longer sufficient (not that it ever was, just sort of assumed). The definition of "resident" is much more clearly defined and you may not meet it.

Thanks for that and yes I know all aBout that ,
Lucky I can pass all the rules .
ways and means , ways and means .

 

[Pasarell]

I can't add anything to what is already here from people far more knowledgeable and experienced than me. Just want to thank Nortada and all contributors for the information so far and hope the discussion stays on this level

 

[Graham376]

I can't add anything to what is already here from people far more knowledgeable and experienced than me. Just want to thank Nortada and all contributors for the information so far and hope the discussion stays on this level

One problem is that although there are EU regulations, each country seems to have their own. Neighbouring Spain and Portugal for instance treat those staying >6 months totally differently so, those seeking advice should pay attention to country specific information rather than assuming it's a level playing field.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Hi Nortada
I'm not a cruiser but live permanently in France. We own property pay tax and have been here for over a decade. But we have never formalised our residency. While my wife is fluent my French is dire.
The problem, as i see it, is that France is the leading protagonist in the negotiations and possibly could take a hard line or just pretend nothing has happened. The argument that it will decrease their tax revenue or crash the property market doesn’t hold water as the French are quite able to cut off their noses to spite their face.
So, we will continue to live here, enjoy the boating and the ambiance all the while I’ll study my French. And if they kick us out (or more likely, refuse us entry after we’ve visited the UK) so be it. Only time will tell

The simple answer is apply for a carte de séjour it does not require any level of French but the application process can be tedious but your wife can steer you through it. At the moment you don't need one but can get a European Union one that gives yo residency rights for 5 years. The French are actually encouraging this and it seems probable that they will just transfer you to a non EU national if the worst happens.
The other option is to apply for French nationality the language criteria is very basic B1 DELF look up some of the past papers, then a multiple choice set of questions on French culture etc and finally shaking the mayors hand and singing the Marseillaise.
In any case they are not going to chuck you out.