brunohamm
New member
Hi everybody,
This is to follow up my true story concerning problems with my BAVARIA 38. The following e-mails were originally written in German and then computer translated into English, so please do not be offended by poor grammar! In the meantime I sent also a letter (Friday last week by DHL) including 16 DIN A4 color photos to the founder and owner of Bavaria. I am still waiting for a reply.
Has anybody any suggestions what I may or may not do to get any kind of compensation for manufacturing faults?
Please read the explanation concerning the “barrier layer” in not penetrated glass fiber mats in the laminate”. In my opinion “A lot of bullshit!”
Best regards, Bruno
MY ORIGINAL E-MAIL DATED JUNE 14, 2007!!!
Subic Bay Free Port
June 14th, 2007
To the customer service
Dear Mr. Schurade!
At first I would like to briefly introduce myself – I am an Austrian citizen, graduated from a Technical Collage HTL in Vienna and lived and worked for about 35 years in Japan, where I bought on April 1st, 2005, a BAVARIA 38 with build number DE-BAVX38P6L404 from the Japanese Bavaria representative and importer [ Nishi Nihon yacht system - Mr. Matsumoto], who used the boat as a demonstrating boat. Still in the same year I had reported by E-Mail to Bavaria of fresh water leaking into the bilge, what was answered at that time that Bavaria has no explanation for such a water leakage.
In November 2005 I left Japan and sailed single-handed from Fukuoka, Japan, via South Korea to Shanghai, where during a storm the anchor windless was torn from its foundation, since only nuts and washers without any backing plates were used, while I had to anchor for four days 60 Nm outside Chinese waters (I was expelled from Shanghai due to “illegal entry” – because Bejing forget to inform Shanghai Pilots about my ETA). An inquiry at Mr. Matsumoto revealed that the anchor windless was already built into the yacht in Germany.
My sailing trip continued to lead me along the Chinese coast to Hong Kong, where on the slip it was detected that the rudder had slipped out of its bearings by approximately 10 cm and was held only by the flange of the autopilot and/or quadrant of the steering resting upon a bulkhead.
In March 2006 I crossed with a German friend, who is working for official legal office (law firm) of the German and Austrian Embassies in Tokyo, the South China Sea and sailed to Puerto Galera on the Philippines. There a typhoon swept over Puerto Galera in May 2006 in my absence, after which again fresh water leakage and a black stinking brew in the bilge was detected by my friend Walter Herberger, who had lost consciousness due to vapors. After my return in June 2006 I removed then this brew, whereby I had to throw several times due to the bad odor of that brew. I collected 2 liters of that liquid and had it analyzed in a laboratory. I sent the analysis report then in August 2006 also to Bavaria, whereby I held the opinion at that time that perhaps sabotage would be present, since the stinking brew had contained 1.2 mg free cyanide potash per liter. But did not receive any answer from Bavaria.
In January 2007 I was unlucky and had ground contact with considerable damage. The Saildrive had broken, that rudder shaft was badly bent, the rudder blade strongly damaged and a crack developed under water near the bow. I let the yacht transfer from Puerto Galera to Subic, since a GRP yacht can be repaired only there. There an Austrian Engineer and Yacht Builder, Franz Urbanek, who is acquainted with the founder and owner of Bavaria from earlier years, described to me that this toxic brew was to due internal osmosis, which forms if fresh water comes in contact with not completely hardened interior fiberglass layers. A repair is impossible, since the interior layers are not accessible. I received the same explanation also at the Chemistry Laboratory at the Department for Plastics Engineering at the Technical Collage HTL in Vienna. After I removed the anti-fouling remove, I could see to my surprise seven with patty locked holes in the underwater body on the port side, which were apparently drilled at incorrect places. I myself remember me to have read a set of rules stimulating grinding and laminating for closing drilled holes on a blue water yacht. And as we ground the damaged laminate around the crack (under water) near the bow a glass fiber mat fellout, which was never impregnated with any polyester resin, also in opinion of a judicial consultant Dipl. Ing. Richard Kuchar as well attorney Dr. Schneider recommended by the insurance Pantaenius in Vienna. I turned provisionally only to a forum of the Practical Boat Owners and sent the same E-Mail also to Bavaria, from which however again any answer was missing. In this forum a British physician drew the attention of me to the fact that by the chemical reactions caused vapors the central nervous system can be harmed and long-term health damage may be caused. The fact that a chemical reaction with such poisonous vapors is possible was confirmed also in the Chemistry Laboratory for Plastics Engineering at the Technical Collage HTL in Vienna. This was then also the explanation for my feelings of dizziness and nausea since the purchase of this yacht, which I could in former times never explain myself. Since the crack concerned the entire laminate, it had to be rgound to the innermost layer. Only three glass fiber mats and three Roving cloths were present, which according to opinion of the court-appointed expert Dipl. Ing. Richard Kuchar is extremely little for a yacht advertised as blue water yacht. I am in the procured to acquire ISO 12215 part 1, in order to control the structure of laminate. Further I was requested both by court-appointed expert Dipl. Ing. Richard Kuchar and by the insurance Pantaenius to check the hull number at the upper corner of the transom on the starboard side. This number is however not laminated into the above position at the starboard side of the transom, how it is specified in the operating instructions, but is indicated on a plate attached with two screws at the quarter starboard side of the yacht. And the build number existing in accordance with Dipl. Ing. Richard Kuchar in the same place also at the inside is missing completely.
Please could you suggest a solution for these problems. Since I am completely satisfied with the performance of my Bavaria 38 (average speed 6.2 knots from Fukuoka, Japan, over Shanghai, China, until Hong Kong during my solo trip with up to maximally 55 knots of wind), I would be willing to change to a somewhat larger yacht (42 or 46 Cruiser) and pay the difference, if the full price for the Bavaria 38 is refunded and the options (several tens of thousands of Euros) installed by me will be transferred to the new yacht.
Yours sincerely,
Bruno Hammerler
Sailing Ship FREIHEIT (LIBERTY)
Sailing yacht in transit W-24099
c/o Watercraft venture Inc.,
Rizal Highway 1031,
Subic Bay Free Zone,
2222 Philippines
P.S.: As appendix to this Mail I send the relevant photos and the letter to the insurance.
FIRST ANSWER APPROXIMATELY ONE WEEK LATER!!!!!
Dear Mr. Hammerler,
We confirm the entrance of your letter and regret that your Bavaria 38 was cause for some objections. After detailed examination of circumstances we can communicate the following to you:
1.) The ship with the build number DE-BAVX38P6L404 was delivered in March 2004 to our Japanese dealer, company J. Marine Trading CO Ltd. It was neither admitted to us if the ship was resold, nor did we know the contractually agreed upon conditions. The company you mentioned to us Nishi Nihon Yacht System - Mr. Matsumoto), from which you acquired the ship, is not known to us. Also we do not know whether this ship at the time of your purchase still was in the original state, whether additional changes were made, or if sea damages have been present. Please have understanding for the fact that we must refer you for the asserting of any requirements to the previous owners or their contracting party.
2.) Bavaria ships are manufactured in such a way that an optimum osmosis protection is guaranteed. Around this guarantee the bottom structure is multilevel developed. The extreme situation of the structure of laminate after the Gel-coat is manufactured in combination of iso-phatalic acid resin and powder-bound mats. This proceeding stands for an effective water barrier and as a protection from osmosis. Only the further situations form the actual trunk laminate, which is responsible for the static firmness. As long as the outside situation of the laminate is not damaged, or after a damage the laminate is properly repaired, no osmosis formation must be feared. We are able to state proudly that since the establishment and foundation of Bavaria not one case of osmosis arose, which resulted from incorrect production of the laminate.
3.) A stinking brew of 1,2 mg free cyanide potassium per liter at the inside of the ship (bilge) could possibly refer to a beginning or progressive osmosis. Then arises naturally the question which cause (except the damage of the outside protective layer) can be responsible for an osmosis formation. In any case a water Diesel mixture in the Bilge can be excluded as a cause. However, if sulfuric acid, for example from the supplying batteries, or components from lead gel batteries leak into the bilge, that is it possible that in connection with water to a chemical reaction is formed, which leads to the formation of cyanide and causes osmosis in the laminate.
Please understand from these facts that we must reject your demands, since Bavaria stands neither in a contractual relation with you and is not responsible for the causes that possibly developed osmosis formation.
Sincerely yours,
W. Schurade
Kundendienstleitung
MY COMMENTS IMMEDIATELY AFTER RECEIVING THE ABOVE MAIL!!!!!
Dear Mr. Schurade!
Thank you very much for your E-Mail, in which however unfortunately more questions than answers were raised. My sales contract was signed between me and Mr. Kazuo Matsumoto, president of the Nishi Nihon Yacht Sales Co., Ltd., as well as Ms. Ritsuko Himeno, president of the J. Marine Trading CO, Ldt., who is the lover of Mr. Matsumoto, as the "surrogate of the Seller".
When I had a ground contact with my yacht in January I had asked my insurance for addresses in Asia for Bavaria agencies and was told that in Japan the Nishi Nihon (west Japan) and in Hong Kong the Jade Marine (HK) Limited, owned by my friend and former Commodore of the Royal Hong Kong Yacht Club, Vic, were the official representatives. The fact that the Nishi Nihon does not admit to you as Bavaria agency is extremely amazing for me. How can such an error occur to the Pantaenius yacht insurance!
In my yacht I used only maintenance-free, i.e. sealed batteries (no gel batteries) so that sulfuric acid as a cause for the beginning of the osmosis formation can be excluded. Also I am surprised that you did not mention two other points I complained about and documented with photos. What for are the apparent arbitrarily drilled holes under water at the port side and why was a chop strand mat in the laminate consisting of three chop nd mats and three roving mats in the underwater region of the bow not impregnated with polyester resin?
BAVARIA’S ANSWER TO MY COMMENTS TWENTY MINUTES LATER
Dear Mr. Hammerler,
We do not know the contract between you and the Japanese Company Nishi Nihon Yacht Sales Co., Ltd., and are therefore not able also to evaluate the delivery deal. We have contract dealers in Japan and in Hong Kong in this region. The firm details of our firm you may see at any time on our homepage under www.bavariayachtbau.com. Osmosis is caused only by chemical reactions. After your descriptions regarding material change, health influence and not least the laboratory analysis suggest the assumption on the entry of sulfuric acid. Whether this entry now of the batteries is due or otherwise took place can we just as little judge like the time of the entry (with you or the previous owner). The ship was delivered by Bavaria in a technically perfect condition. If in your opinion justified demands for compensation of manufacturing folds exist, you must refer to your dealer and/or contracting party. Unnecessary holes in the hull are not drilled by us by the factory. All holes and other cutouts are milled via a CNC milling cutter and are alike with all ships of series. As far as is recognizable on your photo the glass fiber mat shown a part of the powder-bound "first situation layer". This protective layer is not a component of the carrier laminate and can naturally after breaking the surface open at relatively small expenditure from the actual hull laminate be solved. The protective layer receives naturally no homogeneous connection with the hull laminate. The structure of laminate (number, kind and glass weight) is expenditure-selected and of independent institutes examined and certified accurately computed and corresponds within all ranges to the fixed standards.
Yours sincerely,
W. Schurade
This is to follow up my true story concerning problems with my BAVARIA 38. The following e-mails were originally written in German and then computer translated into English, so please do not be offended by poor grammar! In the meantime I sent also a letter (Friday last week by DHL) including 16 DIN A4 color photos to the founder and owner of Bavaria. I am still waiting for a reply.
Has anybody any suggestions what I may or may not do to get any kind of compensation for manufacturing faults?
Please read the explanation concerning the “barrier layer” in not penetrated glass fiber mats in the laminate”. In my opinion “A lot of bullshit!”
Best regards, Bruno
MY ORIGINAL E-MAIL DATED JUNE 14, 2007!!!
Subic Bay Free Port
June 14th, 2007
To the customer service
Dear Mr. Schurade!
At first I would like to briefly introduce myself – I am an Austrian citizen, graduated from a Technical Collage HTL in Vienna and lived and worked for about 35 years in Japan, where I bought on April 1st, 2005, a BAVARIA 38 with build number DE-BAVX38P6L404 from the Japanese Bavaria representative and importer [ Nishi Nihon yacht system - Mr. Matsumoto], who used the boat as a demonstrating boat. Still in the same year I had reported by E-Mail to Bavaria of fresh water leaking into the bilge, what was answered at that time that Bavaria has no explanation for such a water leakage.
In November 2005 I left Japan and sailed single-handed from Fukuoka, Japan, via South Korea to Shanghai, where during a storm the anchor windless was torn from its foundation, since only nuts and washers without any backing plates were used, while I had to anchor for four days 60 Nm outside Chinese waters (I was expelled from Shanghai due to “illegal entry” – because Bejing forget to inform Shanghai Pilots about my ETA). An inquiry at Mr. Matsumoto revealed that the anchor windless was already built into the yacht in Germany.
My sailing trip continued to lead me along the Chinese coast to Hong Kong, where on the slip it was detected that the rudder had slipped out of its bearings by approximately 10 cm and was held only by the flange of the autopilot and/or quadrant of the steering resting upon a bulkhead.
In March 2006 I crossed with a German friend, who is working for official legal office (law firm) of the German and Austrian Embassies in Tokyo, the South China Sea and sailed to Puerto Galera on the Philippines. There a typhoon swept over Puerto Galera in May 2006 in my absence, after which again fresh water leakage and a black stinking brew in the bilge was detected by my friend Walter Herberger, who had lost consciousness due to vapors. After my return in June 2006 I removed then this brew, whereby I had to throw several times due to the bad odor of that brew. I collected 2 liters of that liquid and had it analyzed in a laboratory. I sent the analysis report then in August 2006 also to Bavaria, whereby I held the opinion at that time that perhaps sabotage would be present, since the stinking brew had contained 1.2 mg free cyanide potash per liter. But did not receive any answer from Bavaria.
In January 2007 I was unlucky and had ground contact with considerable damage. The Saildrive had broken, that rudder shaft was badly bent, the rudder blade strongly damaged and a crack developed under water near the bow. I let the yacht transfer from Puerto Galera to Subic, since a GRP yacht can be repaired only there. There an Austrian Engineer and Yacht Builder, Franz Urbanek, who is acquainted with the founder and owner of Bavaria from earlier years, described to me that this toxic brew was to due internal osmosis, which forms if fresh water comes in contact with not completely hardened interior fiberglass layers. A repair is impossible, since the interior layers are not accessible. I received the same explanation also at the Chemistry Laboratory at the Department for Plastics Engineering at the Technical Collage HTL in Vienna. After I removed the anti-fouling remove, I could see to my surprise seven with patty locked holes in the underwater body on the port side, which were apparently drilled at incorrect places. I myself remember me to have read a set of rules stimulating grinding and laminating for closing drilled holes on a blue water yacht. And as we ground the damaged laminate around the crack (under water) near the bow a glass fiber mat fellout, which was never impregnated with any polyester resin, also in opinion of a judicial consultant Dipl. Ing. Richard Kuchar as well attorney Dr. Schneider recommended by the insurance Pantaenius in Vienna. I turned provisionally only to a forum of the Practical Boat Owners and sent the same E-Mail also to Bavaria, from which however again any answer was missing. In this forum a British physician drew the attention of me to the fact that by the chemical reactions caused vapors the central nervous system can be harmed and long-term health damage may be caused. The fact that a chemical reaction with such poisonous vapors is possible was confirmed also in the Chemistry Laboratory for Plastics Engineering at the Technical Collage HTL in Vienna. This was then also the explanation for my feelings of dizziness and nausea since the purchase of this yacht, which I could in former times never explain myself. Since the crack concerned the entire laminate, it had to be rgound to the innermost layer. Only three glass fiber mats and three Roving cloths were present, which according to opinion of the court-appointed expert Dipl. Ing. Richard Kuchar is extremely little for a yacht advertised as blue water yacht. I am in the procured to acquire ISO 12215 part 1, in order to control the structure of laminate. Further I was requested both by court-appointed expert Dipl. Ing. Richard Kuchar and by the insurance Pantaenius to check the hull number at the upper corner of the transom on the starboard side. This number is however not laminated into the above position at the starboard side of the transom, how it is specified in the operating instructions, but is indicated on a plate attached with two screws at the quarter starboard side of the yacht. And the build number existing in accordance with Dipl. Ing. Richard Kuchar in the same place also at the inside is missing completely.
Please could you suggest a solution for these problems. Since I am completely satisfied with the performance of my Bavaria 38 (average speed 6.2 knots from Fukuoka, Japan, over Shanghai, China, until Hong Kong during my solo trip with up to maximally 55 knots of wind), I would be willing to change to a somewhat larger yacht (42 or 46 Cruiser) and pay the difference, if the full price for the Bavaria 38 is refunded and the options (several tens of thousands of Euros) installed by me will be transferred to the new yacht.
Yours sincerely,
Bruno Hammerler
Sailing Ship FREIHEIT (LIBERTY)
Sailing yacht in transit W-24099
c/o Watercraft venture Inc.,
Rizal Highway 1031,
Subic Bay Free Zone,
2222 Philippines
P.S.: As appendix to this Mail I send the relevant photos and the letter to the insurance.
FIRST ANSWER APPROXIMATELY ONE WEEK LATER!!!!!
Dear Mr. Hammerler,
We confirm the entrance of your letter and regret that your Bavaria 38 was cause for some objections. After detailed examination of circumstances we can communicate the following to you:
1.) The ship with the build number DE-BAVX38P6L404 was delivered in March 2004 to our Japanese dealer, company J. Marine Trading CO Ltd. It was neither admitted to us if the ship was resold, nor did we know the contractually agreed upon conditions. The company you mentioned to us Nishi Nihon Yacht System - Mr. Matsumoto), from which you acquired the ship, is not known to us. Also we do not know whether this ship at the time of your purchase still was in the original state, whether additional changes were made, or if sea damages have been present. Please have understanding for the fact that we must refer you for the asserting of any requirements to the previous owners or their contracting party.
2.) Bavaria ships are manufactured in such a way that an optimum osmosis protection is guaranteed. Around this guarantee the bottom structure is multilevel developed. The extreme situation of the structure of laminate after the Gel-coat is manufactured in combination of iso-phatalic acid resin and powder-bound mats. This proceeding stands for an effective water barrier and as a protection from osmosis. Only the further situations form the actual trunk laminate, which is responsible for the static firmness. As long as the outside situation of the laminate is not damaged, or after a damage the laminate is properly repaired, no osmosis formation must be feared. We are able to state proudly that since the establishment and foundation of Bavaria not one case of osmosis arose, which resulted from incorrect production of the laminate.
3.) A stinking brew of 1,2 mg free cyanide potassium per liter at the inside of the ship (bilge) could possibly refer to a beginning or progressive osmosis. Then arises naturally the question which cause (except the damage of the outside protective layer) can be responsible for an osmosis formation. In any case a water Diesel mixture in the Bilge can be excluded as a cause. However, if sulfuric acid, for example from the supplying batteries, or components from lead gel batteries leak into the bilge, that is it possible that in connection with water to a chemical reaction is formed, which leads to the formation of cyanide and causes osmosis in the laminate.
Please understand from these facts that we must reject your demands, since Bavaria stands neither in a contractual relation with you and is not responsible for the causes that possibly developed osmosis formation.
Sincerely yours,
W. Schurade
Kundendienstleitung
MY COMMENTS IMMEDIATELY AFTER RECEIVING THE ABOVE MAIL!!!!!
Dear Mr. Schurade!
Thank you very much for your E-Mail, in which however unfortunately more questions than answers were raised. My sales contract was signed between me and Mr. Kazuo Matsumoto, president of the Nishi Nihon Yacht Sales Co., Ltd., as well as Ms. Ritsuko Himeno, president of the J. Marine Trading CO, Ldt., who is the lover of Mr. Matsumoto, as the "surrogate of the Seller".
When I had a ground contact with my yacht in January I had asked my insurance for addresses in Asia for Bavaria agencies and was told that in Japan the Nishi Nihon (west Japan) and in Hong Kong the Jade Marine (HK) Limited, owned by my friend and former Commodore of the Royal Hong Kong Yacht Club, Vic, were the official representatives. The fact that the Nishi Nihon does not admit to you as Bavaria agency is extremely amazing for me. How can such an error occur to the Pantaenius yacht insurance!
In my yacht I used only maintenance-free, i.e. sealed batteries (no gel batteries) so that sulfuric acid as a cause for the beginning of the osmosis formation can be excluded. Also I am surprised that you did not mention two other points I complained about and documented with photos. What for are the apparent arbitrarily drilled holes under water at the port side and why was a chop strand mat in the laminate consisting of three chop nd mats and three roving mats in the underwater region of the bow not impregnated with polyester resin?
BAVARIA’S ANSWER TO MY COMMENTS TWENTY MINUTES LATER
Dear Mr. Hammerler,
We do not know the contract between you and the Japanese Company Nishi Nihon Yacht Sales Co., Ltd., and are therefore not able also to evaluate the delivery deal. We have contract dealers in Japan and in Hong Kong in this region. The firm details of our firm you may see at any time on our homepage under www.bavariayachtbau.com. Osmosis is caused only by chemical reactions. After your descriptions regarding material change, health influence and not least the laboratory analysis suggest the assumption on the entry of sulfuric acid. Whether this entry now of the batteries is due or otherwise took place can we just as little judge like the time of the entry (with you or the previous owner). The ship was delivered by Bavaria in a technically perfect condition. If in your opinion justified demands for compensation of manufacturing folds exist, you must refer to your dealer and/or contracting party. Unnecessary holes in the hull are not drilled by us by the factory. All holes and other cutouts are milled via a CNC milling cutter and are alike with all ships of series. As far as is recognizable on your photo the glass fiber mat shown a part of the powder-bound "first situation layer". This protective layer is not a component of the carrier laminate and can naturally after breaking the surface open at relatively small expenditure from the actual hull laminate be solved. The protective layer receives naturally no homogeneous connection with the hull laminate. The structure of laminate (number, kind and glass weight) is expenditure-selected and of independent institutes examined and certified accurately computed and corresponds within all ranges to the fixed standards.
Yours sincerely,
W. Schurade
