Training sails for dinghies...what are they? Why aren't they class-legal?

Greenheart

Greenheart

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Maintaining an interest in adopting an asymmetric, I occasionally look for old dinghy sails on sale...but the miracle of internet shopping doesn't seem to extend to low-cost used sails. Finding cheap old ones still seems mostly a matter of luck...meeting someone who knows someone whose neighbour owns the relevant class...:rolleyes:

...but I did find a site selling new training sails for certain classes...and these are certainly much less costly than standard class-approved sails, and since my use will never, ever require any kind of race-certification, I'm keen to know more. These sails are said to be:

"not class legal for racing events but are a cost-effective fully compatible alternative... designed for club/training use in hard-wearing ripstop racing Dacron."

Sounds to me like they're every bit as good as sails made under licence for the classes, but without the licence, they don't pay dinghy-manufacturers anything...

...so they're fine for every aspect of using the boat, except in events which uphold artificially-inflated costs as a pay-off for class approval.

This wasn't meant to be a rant, just a question...is a £350 RS400 training spinnaker, effectively any different from a Hyde version at £550?

Here's the training sail page I found: http://www.sailregister.co.uk/individualtraninsails.php?class=RS400
 
To the best of my knowledge they are slightly smaller in area making easier to learn on a particular dinghy,which is why they would be useless for racing.
 
Really? But if they're a disadvantage from the racer's point of view, why would they be disallowed? The racer might not prefer them, but the class would hardly prohibit them.

You may well be right though, I've no idea.
 
dancrane said:
Really? But if they're a disadvantage from the racer's point of view, why would they be disallowed? The racer might not prefer them, but the class would hardly prohibit them.

You may well be right though, I've no idea.
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Some classes (and I'm pretty sure that the RS400 is one) only allow one sailmaker making sails to one design to be used in class racing. That's simply to keep everything as even as it can possibly be, and keep costs down for the sailors.
Where classes allow different sailmakers you can get a feeling arising in the class that sailmaker A's sails are best in light winds, but Sailmaker B's best in heavy conditions. So serious sailors may consider owning a set of each (or two, or three) and choosing which to use at a given event based on the forecast.
Or sailmaker C could suddenly come out with a very fast new cut of main which makes all others instantly obsolete.

All of which has the effect of increasing the cost to the sailors, for little if any increase in fun. So by saying "your sails shall be made by sailmaker A" you know that your new sails when delivered will be exactly as fast as the world champion's.

None of which stops other sailmakers offering sails to fit the class, but they would not be legal to sail in class racing.
 
Firstly, I am not a racer, secondly I prefer to sail without my bum being wet.

I have always understood a class to mean a standard and that every boat or plank of wood that is in that class must be as identical as you can make is - thus you are testing the crew not the different sail sizes.
 
Thanks, Flaming - that's very clear.

So, would you say there's nothing actually inferior about these far-cheaper training sails? As I understand it, their price represents a boon for non-racing sailors.
 
Dan,

Flaming is right in the relevant aspects of his post. The replica sail will be at least as well made and the same shape and size. These sails will not be from the single nominated sailmaker and so buying them you will not be paying the owner of the class (in this case RS) a chunky royalty on the sails. The RS400 was created by RS and so to be class rules compliant you can only buy the bits from RS or their nominated supplier. It is about profit maximisation rather than cost savings to the sailor - albeit with the advantage that you all get exactly the same product.
 
flaming said:
Some classes (and I'm pretty sure that the RS400 is one) only allow one sailmaker making sails to one design to be used in class racing. That's simply to keep everything as even as it can possibly be, and keep costs down for the sailors.
.......

None of which stops other sailmakers offering sails to fit the class, but they would not be legal to sail in class racing.
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It's partly to keep profits up for the manufacturers, who have control of these classes.
This enables them to sell lots of boats, relatively cheaply, knowing their profit will come from the sails.
It does avoid the rat race of ongoing development, but also tends to mean you don't know whose Chinese spinnaker cloth you're buying.
 
Not sure I'd want a Ripstop Dacron main if I had an RS400 though?
I'd guess it would have a short life before looking worse or being slower than buying last season's sail off a top sailor for about half the price.
Dacron might be better for a sailing school though.
The official mains are some sort of Mylar that seems to last quite well, at least at club level.

You see an awful lot of club racing Lasers using Rooster sails around here.
Generally said to be equal to the 'genuine article' when new, and degrade slower.
 
Thanks to all for contributing. I saw a Rooster sail at my club last summer...it was the first time since the 1980s that I'd seen a Laser and wished I could have a go. The slight increase in area changes the proportions to look like something much beefier.

Pretty sure my very ancient mainsails are both Dacron - is that not the ideal fabric?
 
lw395 said:
You see an awful lot of club racing Lasers using Rooster sails around here.
Generally said to be equal to the 'genuine article' when new, and degrade slower.
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The Laser is the classic example of the class being ripped off.

An "official" full rig sail is £395 without battens or sail numbers.

For comparison, a custom-made laminate #3 jib for my small yacht (with battens) was under £600.

A Rooster Laser full rig "training" sail is £140.
 
mrming said:
The Laser is the classic example of the class being ripped off.

An "official" full rig sail is £395 without battens or sail numbers.

For comparison, a custom-made laminate #3 jib for my small yacht (with battens) was under £600.

A Rooster Laser full rig "training" sail is £140.
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Sadly its always been that way, I remember the sails for my dad's small cruiser being cheaper than the official Laser product which appeared to come from Hyde.

Things might have changed but the tolerances on things like the cunningham hole were quite large such that when looking for a new racing sail we would route around to find the one in the highest location so maximum downhaul could be applied when it was windy.

Edit - IIRC If you were fortunate enough to have bought a new Laser it was cheaper to trade it in for a new one than to by a replacement sail each year.
 
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Just to add to Flaming's post, the description SMOD is used to describe the classes where these type of training sails exist. SMOD stands for Single Manufacturer One Design and the concept is all about ensuring that the boats are as even as possible. Laser does go a bit further and allows a single manufacturer for different regions of the world (NA, Europe and Australisia being the main regions). In nearly all cases the training sails are simply there to provide a lower cost alternative and sometimes better constructed sail that will last longer. There is therefore the possibility that they might even be superior to the originals. The description "Training" is really about getting around class rules in those classes. Laser is notorious for making their official sails over-priced and poorly constructed, which is what brought training sails in SMODS to prominence. Basically the manufacturers got too greedy with the most successful dinghy of all time.

Separately, training sails in development, restricted development or multiple manufacturer one design are just, that training sails, and therefore unlikely to be competitive racing even if you used them. Typically they are smaller and less well constructed and offer only price as the differentiator. One class of dinghy I sail has a training sail that is perfectly class legal, but you would never see anyone use one in a race cause it is rubbish in comparison. Half the price and half the performance, but that is perfectly fine for training.
 
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flaming said:
Some classes (and I'm pretty sure that the RS400 is one) only allow one sailmaker making sails to one design to be used in class racing. That's simply to keep everything as even as it can possibly be, and keep costs down for the sailors.
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The rules of one of the Clyde OD classes (Gareloch?) stipulate that no owner may buy a new mainsail without the unanimous consent of all the others, to stop the sort of arms race you describe.
 
Eyore said:
To the best of my knowledge they are slightly smaller in area making easier to learn on a particular dinghy,which is why they would be useless for racing.
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Common for Lasers and Toppers etc: not smaller, just not the official sail from the class approved source. If all you want from a Laser is a beach toy (what it was designed as in fact, and great fun) a perfectly good sail, but if you try to enter any Laser class race you'll be disqualified unless you finish last.
 
Little Grebe said:
Sadly its always been that way, I remember the sails for my dad's small cruiser being cheaper than the official Laser product which appeared to come from Hyde....
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Hyde are probably getting around £40.
And getting them made in China for £20.
But then Laser(UK) will have paid a fortune for the UK franchise and have to make that money back somehow.
 
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