Tom always has owned sound boats

[Little_Russel]

It is interesting to see that Tom Cunliffe is having a go at those marques 'that currently sell in large numbers' in his Yachtmaster Class in the July YM. They 'stall' and 'broach head to wind' with 'sickening lurches to windward'. The most amazing thing to see is that YM is actually criticising any boats. They normally sit firmly on the fence so as not to upset anyone. Perhaps they are becoming more pro-active!

<hr width=100% size=1>Sail the Se7en seas...

 

[billmacfarlane]

Since I suspect the majority of YM readers own boats as described by Tom Cunliffe, it's a bit of an insult to their taste and judgement. The majority of the same readers are probably aware of their boat's limitations, but accept them as it suits the style of their sailing, maybe something that he's aware of. I've never been a particular fan of TC, finding him a bit of a know-all and holier-than-thou, but much to my surprise I agreed with most of the article. He's nearly right when he says that it doesn't have to be like this. If you look hard at the current market they're are boats being built that don't go head to wind at the hint of a puff-you've just got to look for them if you want that sort of a boat.

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[warrior40]

I must say that I am inclined to agree with Old Tom, it doesn't have to be this way...
If Jeremy Clarkson was a Yachting Journalist and wrote boat tests,.. well you can imagine what he'd say about said mass produced boats.

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[snowleopard]

didn't i read once that westernman had turned out to have a vicious snap roll caused by too much external ballast. those who live in glass houses.... shouldn't criticise those who live in glass boats.

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[Twister_Ken]

There's nothing wrong with 'mass produced' per se. It's the designs that are put into mass production which are at fault. But maybe lessons are being learned? The latest generation of Bavariaii are supposed to be considerably better than their predecessors in the 'not-broaching' department. Slamming still seems to be endemic though.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again</A>

 

[ecudc]

This.....is possibly.....the worst boat........ever made.

Perhaps we need someone like Jeremy. He may be an irritating git but I suspect that car manufacturer pay attention to programs like Top Gear because consumers do and if JC says its a pile of S@*t then its really bad advertising. I've only heared of one company (not a mainstream) refusing to let Top Gear test drive cars in future because of a bad review and they give a fair number of them. To do so would mean cutting yourself off from a potentially great advertising source and honest impartial critism/suggestions on ways to improve your car/boat.

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[Mirelle]

Vicious snap roll

Is that " a vicious snap roll by the standards of Bristol Channel Pilot Cutters", or "a vicious snap roll"?

In my limited experience, pilot cutters with their displacement tonnage greater than their Thames tonnage (i.e. very heavy indeed) inside ballast, soft bilges, good beam, long, roll-damping, keel and fairly flat topsides, have about the most comfortable motion that a sailing boat can have. Colin Archers on the other hand with lesser displacement and flaring topsides chuck you about a lot more - relatively.

Eric Hiscock's Wanderer 3 has a notorious snap roll due to her outside ballast and narrow sections, so even Giles got it wrong sometimes - though, having gone four times round the block, she cannot be very far wrong!

If you stepped from Hirta onto Westernman you would probably be annoyed at the motion. If you stepped from a high volume light fin keeler, you might not be.

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[Mirelle]

Relative market power

I think the idea of Old Tom doing a Clarkson on production boats, bearing in mind his build, temperament and wit, is quite delightful.

However, whilst the BBC can always command an audience of some millions for a car programme, and needs no advertising revenue, YM for example is struggling for market share with competitors. It would be easier for a boat maker to cut out YM than for a car maker to cut out the BBC.

Twenty years ago and more, it was different - there were many small boatbuilders with offerings which were broadly similar, so a YM review in the days of Old Harry packed a punch -remember the "YM index figure" for what the boat would really cost, with fenders and a boathook, and the campaign to get two jubilee clips on each skin fitting?

Each building company was small and an Editor could afford the loss of their advertising. Would any Editor, today, be able to be so sanguine about the loss of advertising from the huge builders that we have now?



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[Gunfleet]

Re: Relative market power

Just how much advertising does Bavaria carry in your copy of YM?

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[nicho]

Re: Relative market power

A quick count up of the boat manufacturers ads in the July YM issue show as follows:

Nimbus -1/2 page
Southerly - 1/2 page
Jeanneau - 1 page
Legend - 1 page
Hallberg rassey - 1 page
Nordship 1/3 page
Alubat 1/3 page.

To answer your question, there is nothing from Bavaria this time (but usually only 1 page), and a total of only about 4 1/2 paqes from boat manufacturers - and this from about 70 pages of ads (Chandlery, Insurance, Charter, Sea Schools etc etc) but not including classifieds. Strikes me that as a percentage of YM's total advertising revenue, boat manufacturers are small fry indeed, certainly not enough surely for YM to "throw" a boat test. Could it be that "modern" boats are not SO bad after all, or is it all in the minds of some that are anchored in old times?? Maybe someone from YM could comment - KIM?

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[Gunfleet]

Re: Relative market power

That was my point, really. Boat builders are important but if you look at the spread of advertising in YM I don't think any particular builder is a live or die matter for the publisher. And I'd have thought YM's readership is pretty closely defined. I bet you don't get Halsberg Rassy ads in Sailing Today!

Having said which, you definitely can put advertisers noses out of joint in this way. I remember rubbishing a now defunct pub in a magazine guide (during an earlier incarnation as a journalist) and the managing editor phoning me to say the owner of the pub chain had gone bonkers because they'd sold him a big display ad on the basis I was going to review his pub. It was not the review he'd expected. Oh dear. Given the choice I would rather have taken the Colin Jones line and remained silent, but that's just a personal thing

<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by JohnM on 23/06/2003 12:22 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[Mirelle]

Re: Relative market power

Fair point about the advertising. I was'nt suggesting "throwing" tests! But does'nt it strike you that the tone of boat tests is a bit bland? I was just wanting a bit more Clarkson-type outrageous opinions.

I suppose that once you have printed the polar diagram and the GZ curve, and set out the leading dimensions, there is not a lot more in the way of hard facts that can be said about a sailing boat; from then on we are into more or less subjective stuff.




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[sailbadthesinner]

Re: mischief making

i read the article
it is a peice intended to raise the hackles of some and a debate amongst others

for a start
he was supposedly on an acquaintance's boat.
I donot know TC but even i know that inviting him on a modern boat is going to cause comment from him in some deprtment. I found it difficult to believe that a 'shipmate' made the comment
'what? it is not always like this?' I am paraphrasing as i donot have said article in front of me. I have seen enough boat articles to realise the pay off of the beamy spacey boats. Does this acquaintance never read the press or speak to TC.

Whilst TC's points maybe valid they are hardly new. I am surprised they made it in the magazine. This had the feel of a well practised set piece dressed up with a new entry 'i was on a plastic boat recently' followed by a peice that could have been typed on auto pilot

it almost smacks of lazy journalism. Has he not got something new to write about? not only that but somwehere else in the mag is a peice on the new Mystery 35 that seems to a be a new boat with the the exact sea keeping abilities he memoans are lacking in todays boats. Admittedly the Mystery is one in a sea of hundreds of the white 'caravans.'
But it does show that all are aware of his points and some manufacturers are seeking to see if there is a market for boats which are somewhere in the middle.

The real debate for me was the comments of Rodd Carr. Asked to ascribe a reason as to why Power is becoming more popular than sail he stated that technical skills required for power are less but other than that could not say as he is a sailor.

If i was a stinky and a member of the RYA it would worry me that the Chief exec of an organisiation supposed to represent me appears to have only a passing concern as to why i do what i do.


<hr width=100% size=1><font color=red>if guinness is good for you. i must be very very good</font color=red>

 

[nicho]

Re: Relative market power

Ah yes Jeremy Clarkson!! Clarkson seem to know very little about cars, or how to drive them. He makes outrageous and damning comments about products for the sake of it, and usually because they are not red, don't do 180mph, and are not built in Italy. He says controversial things just to be controversial - I doubt if he possesses credentials to enable him to give a TRUE test of any car. Is that what you want for YM - controversy for the sake of it, blurring the merits of any boat, and not considering the markets they are aimed for? I don't really think so!!

The opinions of SERIOUS motoring journalists about Clarkson's style, (and who, by and large are capable of giving proper, balanced report on the car they are testing) is worth knowing, but in fairness to the guy, he has made a fortune for himself, but probably done a lot of damage along the way.

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[Mirelle]

Power

On the comment ascribed to Rod Carr - a lot of people who used to sail seem to be buying power boats, so "lack of skills" does not seem, to me, to be the right reason. The people I know who have gone to power have usually said it was due to age.

You certainly have a lot more room, at anchor or alongside, on a power boat, at the price of a less pleasant time at sea, in a displacement boat, or a shorter but very expensive time at sea in a fast boat.

Pottering round from the Colne to the Deben yesterday I was very struck by

(a) how many sailing boats were using their engines and

(b) how I would probably have used mynown engine, if it had not been u/s!

Since I could not use it, I had to sail properly. In the event I enjoyed myself much more, and will be making a conscious effort not to use the engine in future.

In the Thames estuary, using your tides is vital, and I had slipped into the bad habit of an extra hour's sleep, then some engine.

Now, if nearly everyone is more or less using their sailing boat as a motor sailer, and I fancy we mostly are, does that explain why so many people just decide to forgo the sails?

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[Jacket]

Re: Relative market power

<Could it be that "modern" boats are not SO bad after all>

Yes, I think thats the 'excuse' used by JJ a few months ago. But its rather missing the point, isn't it? The same could be said for cars- after all they all get us from A to B, are reasonably reliable and do 70 mph.

Its no good writing nice reviews for every boat because they're all OK. It doesn't help us choose between boats, or tell us anything about them.

Yes, all boats will sail from A to B, have accomadation that you can live with, and don't fall appart too often. But surely we want more than that? To me a boat must be:

i) Fun to sail.
ii) well put together down below- no one wants bits coming loose or looking tatty after a few years.
iii) Good looking
iv) Handle well
v) comfortable at sea

etc.....

Now, no-one can pretend that all modern boats meet all these requirements well. Most meet them acceptably, but not well.

So why not say? If a boats not fun to sail, say so. Don't try and skirt around it with vauge comments like "the helm could have done with a bit more feel."

Surely this is what people want. Not "this boat's OK" but "this boat's prevented from being perfect because......"

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[sailbadthesinner]

Re: Gap in the market

i think there is a gap in the market for a clarkson style reviewer. How many of us know as much about boats as say James Jermain, Tom Cunliffe?
well not many
but how many boat buyers know very little about boats?
lots.
I look sagely at GZ curves and sort of understand that it shows at some point your boat will tip up. but could i explain it to the wife. No.

these boats are bought witha combination of heart of wallet. Lets face it it is a huge indulgence. none of us needs the boat.

so whilst a technical appraisal of the merits of this versus that may be praisworthy i reckon most times the discion to buy comes down to the follwing factors

The biggest boat we could afford
It was the newest boat we could afford
it is the fastest
the most seaworthy
the most traditional
it is a classic
it has a blue hull
the wife liked it
it had an ice bucket in the cockpit table and cup holders by the wheel, which incidentally was leather covered.

whilst technical spec is all very well most potential owners view their boat in a more clarkson like mode than cunliffe mode.

I did hear of someone who bought a boat and never realised it had a holding tank. Although i think this is an urban myth







<hr width=100% size=1><font color=red>if guinness is good for you. i must be very very good</font color=red>

 

[sailbadthesinner]

Re: your ideal boat?

'i) Fun to sail.
ii) well put together down below- no one wants bits coming loose or looking tatty after a few years.
iii) Good looking
iv) Handle well
v) comfortable at sea'

have you met my wife?????


<hr width=100% size=1><font color=red>if guinness is good for you. i must be very very good</font color=red>

 

[bedouin]

Re: Relative market power

To be fair on YM - I don't think that it is so much the advertisers as the readers who set the agenda, and colour their reviews.

There are a lot of people out there who think Bavarias, Beneteau and the like are the ideal boat, and many more who charter them through companies such as Sunsail. This is the "mass market" for which YM in particular caters.

Whether they admit it or not, I'm sure you will find that they don't consider that the opinions of people like you or I matter as much, either because we don't represent a significant part of their audience, or because they feel we will carry on reading whatever they print.

The fact is that you aren't going to win any friends by publishing a damning review of any boat - and you would permanently alienate supporters of whatever marque you were condemning.

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[Mirelle]

I agree

I did not mean to put so much emphasis on advertising - it was the market position of an expensive (loads of colour photos!) magazine with a rather smallish circulation, therefore very dependent on advertising, which in turn depends on circulation, that I realy had in mind. They dare not lose readers.

Clarkson on the BBC can say pretty much what he likes, and no-one will stop watching the BBC because he says that their car is a dog. But, as you say, if you say anything less than wholly flattering about someone's boat, Hell hath no fury...

They are quite right about me; I buy the magazine anyway, but I have never bought a new boat, so I read the reviews purely for fun.

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