Toilets

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shanegoodhand

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Hi everyone, Myself and my wife intend to join the liveaboard community just as soon as our property has sold and the relevant courses have been done.

After years of thinking about it, reading about it, attending the boat shows and researching the internet, we actually tried sailing on a flotilla in the Ionian in May and loved every minute.

Apart from the great holiday, doing things practically really helped lots of theoretical things that I had only ever read about, click into place and seem a lot simpler. Which brings me onto the subject of my first post...

How do people cope with marine toilets??

As a not particularly "regular guy", the two times that I went in two weeks left the poor engineer from the lead boat diving under our boat in open choppy water with just his mask, flippers and long proggling wire to try to unblock the system. All of the instructions were followed - pump the contents out, flick the lever, pump again 10 times, no toilet paper down the pan etc.... but to no avail.

This was my own problem, but you don't need to read very much to find stories of leaky seals, smelly hoses and all sorts of other problems associated with toilets on boats.

There are a number of alternatives and I just wondered if there are any good reasons why the source seperating and desicating type toilets don't seem to be mentioned anywhere.

The only issues in my (inexperienced) mind are the location of the flue (solar powered fan) which constantly extracts moisture and odour from the contents at the base of the toilet and the disposal site on land of a bagful of dried sh*t (although we have special bins for dogs in this country).

The advantages seem to be - constant extraction of air from inside the bathroom (sorry - head) to reduce condensation and aid ventalation, no use of water, no need for large holding tanks as only urine needs to be stored, use the type and quantity of toilet paper that you want, no chance of a blockage, and no dumping of solid waste into the water.
 
I've never heard of 'source seperating and desicating type toilets', no doubt the Headmistress will enlighten us all.
But possibly your problems ( and the engineers, for that matter!! /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif) stem from you not being 'a regular guy'!
Two times in two weeks must be some kinda record. So perhaps its the quantity that's doing the damage... as it were.
Either that, or the last user of the boat left an amount of paper (or other matter) in the holding tanks that only discharged whilst you had it.
Or....... could it be that SWMBO was not so diligent as you in her oblutions? and kept quiet about it.
Personally I've never had any problem with blockages, except when having visitors on board. And I have NEVER had any smells or leaks etc. If you have a smelly heads I would suspect bigger problems. There is no reason why a heads should smell if looked after properly, and certainly no need for extractor fans.... (except for intermitant use... but an opened port will clear that in minutes)
 
Marine toilets, in my experience, never block with just poo, but always block if you put anything else down.

All holding tanks are the source of smell sooner or later, but you must have one in the Med. If I had a boat big enough I would have two. One a normal straight out to the sea and another either with a holding tank and smells or a Potta-potty type if I wanted to be without.

The holding tank system I have was fitted by the boat manufacturer but had 23 possible places where a leak could occur and six were. Keep it simple.
 
You need, for Med, Baltic and America a holding tank system which allows any straight to sea discharge to be locked off until you are sufficient miles off. (for America this can be via a Y valve and seacock which might be sealed even with cable ties and then marked by USCG (so US friends tell me - not got there yet.)

I was interested in the link to the airhead toilet. We looked hard at these sorts of things when we moved on board but three things in particular put us off:

(i) power drain from running something pretty consistently
(ii) size - at the time (2003) there was nothing around that looked big enough to cope with two people actually living on the boat. The airhead 'on land'emptying suggests that for 2 people it will last 40 days before emptying. That seems a helluva lot compared to many others, and I do wonder if the tankage would be big enough if in fact that is forty continuous days rather than weekend use as described on the site. Certainly the Canadian Eco-Mar people who I discussed it with two and a half years ago couldn't be confident their loos would cope
(iii) emptying - this says you need to take it to the rail - not necessarly the best move at sea! ideally i'd like one I could pump out to sea with valves, stop cocks etc.

In principle I absolutely agree with the aspiration, because it seems awful that we (yachties) pump so much raw sewage out. (And before everybody jumps on me, just because towns etc do it too, does not, for me, mean that it's unreflectively okay for us.) But I'm not sure the technology is delivering yet.

Best book on marine loos is Peggie Hall (the headmistress) getting rid of boat odours.

Good luck with it all
 
As a pharmacist and ex-flotilla lead crew member, I can tell you that "twice in 2 weeks" is definitely not normal: you should be drinking a lot more water, i.e. 4 litres/day for the Med; Those lovely Greek salads do wonders for one's innards too, especially when seasoned with copious olive oil.
My Hostie-briefings about loos used to contain the usual warnings about not putting anything down the pan that you haven't eaten yourself first, and a special mention for Ladies: "no strings, no wings"(ask SWMBO to explain what that means!).
HOWEVER, blockages weren't always guests' fault: we found that quite a few modern popular production yachts seem to skimp a bit on the diameter of pipes used in their toilet systems: we never had any problems with Moodys who had 38mm-diameter pipework, but the same couldn't be said about other makes.
Flushing through with plenty of water is also always a good idea- don't get fixated on the "10 pumps" thing.
Finally, don't despair: holding tanks that don't smell, don't leak, don't clog up etc. DO exist- we've got two of them on our boat!
 
Go for a Blakes Lavac. Put the piping in an accessible place. The system relies in vacuum to empty and refill with water using a hand pump. If there is a blockage the pump can easily be opened and cleared. Using a Y valve in the system the same pump can be used as a bilge pump. Brian
 
If you haven't flushed anything but what you've eaten first, my guess as to the reason for your clogs (apart from agreeing with others that passing solid waste only two times in two weeks has GOT to produce an insoluble mass) is a discharge hose from the toilet that's almost blocked with sea water mineral buildup. Pull the discharge hose off the toilet and take a look inside...I suspect you'll find that diameter inside has been reduced to <1/2"...smaller than anything you're passing can get through.

If I'm right, a 12% solution hydrochloric acid in water (follow ALL instructions for handling and use VERY carefully!) will dissolve it...a cupful of undiluted white vinegar flushed down the toilet once a week will prevent it from recurring.

When properly maintained and operated, marine toilets are relatively trouble free...99% of problems are due to lack of maintenance and guests who flush something they shouldn't.

As for composters and "dessicator" systems like the Airhead, they can be a viable alternative to a holding tank on a boat on "no discharge" inland waters, but it makes little sense IMO to store waste aboard in any form in waters where it can be flushed directly overboard. And there are other issues...the need for continuous power...for regular "doses" of peat moss (which must be stored aboard) to absorb excess moisture, just to name a few. Nor are they maintenance free...and if you have to store urine aboard, you don't gain much if anything--'cuz urine can stink just as much as solid waste--so what's the advantage over a portapotty or holding tank? IMO, you're far better off with a decent quality (which rules out the least expensive, but doesn't mean you have to spend the money for the most expensive) marine toilet, properly plumbed and maintained.
 
Lots of good advice here. I'd add just two points:

1. IMHO being constipated isn't in itself a reason for a toilet to block. But constipated poo is denser, so if any is left in the line it's more likely to gum up between uses. So you need to make sure it's well flushed out. The extra water taken will be balanced by fewer occasions!

2. Do try to have two heads on a boat. Heads do fail occasionally. If you are living aboard they get a lot of use, so if you are tossing up between boats I'd make that an important consideration. Backup is always good (except when it's a holding tank that's backed up of course!).

BTW none of my biz but it concerns me a little that if I've read your post correctly you appear to be prosposing to live aboard based on a one flotilla experience. That's a very different thing. If you have not done so I'd strongly suggest you and your wife do some passagemaking as crew i.e. take a boat down to the Med. I did this before taking the plunge and it gave me a lot of confidence that this was the right life for me, and that I could do it.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Lots of good advice here. I'd add just two points:

1. IMHO being constipated isn't in itself a reason for a toilet to block. But constipated poo is denser, so if any is left in the line it's more likely to gum up between uses. So you need to make sure it's well flushed out. The extra water taken will be balanced by fewer occasions!

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent point, Jeremy...one I hadn't thought of till you mentioned it, and one that applies equally to the constipated AND those who aren't...'cuz sea water mineral buildup traps bit of solid waste...if it's not VERY well flushed out, not only the minerals but waste too builds up in the hose.

It's also VERY possible that he--his wife too--was only flushing long enough to move bowl contents only as far as the thru-hull, not enough to push it out of the boat. The likelihood of that happening is even greater if the distance from the toilet to the thru-hull is more than about 6'...'cuz 6' is as far as bowl contents move in the amount of time that 99% of people will spend pumping a toilet. And when they repeatedly quit before the flush is out the boat--or worse yet, as soon as the bowl is empty, it can pile up in the pipe. So the "pump 10x rule" is NOT set in stone..."pump as many times as it takes to move the bowls contents all the way out (or into the tank)" should be.

He hasn't said whether his wife went more often than he did, nor whether she also clogged the loo piping...but if she didn't pump long enough either, his problem may very well be attributable to both of them.
 
Thanks for all your advice.

I guess it's my fault that the post seemed to detract more towards the operation of my alimentary canal rather than your thoughts on dessicating toilet systems.

Abigails interesting comments not withstanding, I wonder if the lack of knowledge/interest in the subject indicates that alternative toilet systems really are no use in a marine envioronment, whether they just haven't caught on yet (possibly due to preconceptions about what dry systems used to be like, ie flies/smells) or whether it's just the typical human response - it's not my problem once it's off my boat - in the words of the headmistress "it makes little sense IMO to store waste aboard in any form in waters where it can be flushed directly overboard"

My only bad experience in Greece (apart from pumping that handle for ages in the toilet cubicle of a Benetau 29!) was to anchor in a beautiful, desserted anchorage only to smell and then see the remenants of a holding tank (that may or may not have been discharged away from the coastline).

I'm not going to give up on this alternative method without further research, so if anyone has any links or articles relating to the subject, I'd really appreciate them. :-)
 
Have you thought about where the air goes after passing through the dessicating tank?

A holding tank only discharges air when you are flushing the head and what comes out is pretty vile. The small volume can be made to smell less by passing through a carbon filter.

Having met a composting toilet in the Australian bush I can assure you there is a large volume of very unpleasant air coming out. If you have a fan to suck air in from the boat interior, that air has to come out somewhere. Unless you are going to run a chimney up to the masthead you'll be very short of friends!
 
Actually, the best "alternative" to flushing directly overboard or into a holding tank is a treatment device, such as the Raritan Lectra/San http://www.raritaneng.com/products/waste_treatment/index.html
The toilet flushes into it where waste is completely liquified and diluted, and bacteria killed before it goes overboard...the flush is completely unnoticeable to anyone except someone who happens to be diving under the boat with a couple of feet of the thru-hull when the toilet is flushed and has been made non-harmful to the environment. Unfortunately, though, such devices cannot be used in waters that have been designated "no discharge." Even more unfortunately, "no discharge" is a growing trend worldwide.

To date, no one has managed to come up with a system for storing waste aboard that actually offers enough advantages over a simple holding tank to make it worth the extra cost and maintenance required. Composters and dessicators do eliminate flush water--which is about 75% of the contents of a holding tank--and separate and store solids considerably longer than putting 'em into a holding tank, but solids only make up less than 10% of holding tank contents...so the only REAL advantage to these systems is the elimination of flush water. But that still leaves urine and the moisture in solids (solids are 75% water) that must be drained off or evaporated in order for the system to create compost...they can't legally go overboard in "no discharge" waters either...so you're still stuck with storing SOME waste aboard, either in jugs or a holding tank, while adding a considerable amount of maintenance to the sanitation system to ensure that the solids which make up only 10% of waste do what the system is designed to make 'em do instead of turning into a rotting mass of smelling "mud."

However, the concept of separating solids from urine and then being able to store the solids considerably longer without odor (apparently forgetting that undiluted urine can stink as much or even MORE than a mix of highly diluted urine and solids) than it takes to fill up a holding tank with waste and flush water appeals to some people...but I can't see any real advantage to it.

But it's your boat and your choice. So if you want to research these systems, start here:

http://www.airheadtoilet.com/Index/Page_1x.html

http://www.sun-mar.com/

http://www.envirolet.com/marineorboat.html

http://www.nature-loo.com.au/toilets/systems/excelmarine.htm

Take special note of the prices!
 
Actually, snowleopard, when installed, operated and maintained properly, composters are odor-free. It's only when owners try to "reinvent" them by using clay or sawdust instead of peatmoss, or conserve power by not running the evaporators and fans...or just never bothered to read the instructions to learn how to use them, that they stink.

There is one major factor I forgot to mention earlier: temperature. Composting requires bacterial activity, which means the temperature has to be high enough for it to occur--at least mid-70s F. Bacterial activity becomes more and more sluggish as temperature drops, ceasing altogether at 40 F. So composters don't work in cold weather unless the boat is kept warm even when no one is aboard or the system includes a heater that must run continuously.

However, the upside is...odor is also generated by bacterial activity, so nothing stinks in cold weather either. But if composting activity can't occur due to cold, it will certainly stink when it warms up, though!

Otoh, holding tanks won't produce odor even the warmest temperatures if they're maintained aerobically. It's only when the environment inside the tank becomes anaerobic that odor can be generated...and while vent line filters trap odor, they also help to create the very problem they're sold to solve (if only I could invent something that does that!), by blocking the free exchange of air needed to keep the tank aerobic. Because filters are "toast" immediately if they get wet, they're also not recommended for use on sailboats due to the high likelihood of waste spilling out the vent when heeled.
 
Hi Snowleopard,

Yes, as I mentioned in my original post that is one of the downsides to the system. We are looking at catamarans so whether this would allow for more flexibility in positioning of the vent hose I'm not sure, but as you say - the higher the better.

There is a point that people seem to be misunderstanding though and that is that a dessicating toilet isn't the same thing as a composting toilet, although there are combined systems.

Composting systems mix urine and faeces, and then the user adds other bulking material such as peat moss after every use. Some liquid does have to be evaporated or lost in some way, so as not to saturate the mixture. This allows aerobic bacteria to break down the mixture which eventually (after a number of stages) will become pure sterile compost.
This system has a number of disadvantages. If the mixture becomes too saturated, the aerobic bacteria become starved of oxygen, die and are replaced with anaerobic bacteria which produce the foul smelling gasses that you described above. Also the toilets are larger due to the need for bulking material (which also needs to be stored) to be added and more complicated as they have mixing devices to keep the material well oxygenated, and different compartments for different stages of the decomposition process. Worms are also sometimes added to help the process and I wonder what problems this could throw up with regard to quarantine laws when moving between countries?

Dessicating toilets on the other hand are much more simple.

The urine is seperated at source by a dividing bit in the bowl. The urine is diverted to the front of the bowl either into a holding tank or into an "easy empty bottle" that stores at the front of the toilet and can be emptied every day or two.
The rear of the toilet bowl can often be lined with a cheap disposable liner (like a giant coffee filter) which keeps it clean without a water flush. The faecal material in the liner drops down into the holding chamber, sometimes with the press of a foot pedal and is hidden from view. This chamber is where the continuous fan extraction happens, drawing air through the toilet and expelling it outside. The fact that the solid material never became saturated with urine (or flush water)and is dried by the continuous stream of air means that it doesn't smell like a typical toilet system and the volume is vastly reduced as the moisture is lost. This (they advertise) allows quite a lot of use between emptying. The dried waste matter can be burned, dumped or buried, although on rehydration, the material isn't sterile like in the finished composting system.
On both systems, as much of any type of toilet paper that you want can be added without fear of blockage.
 
Excellent stuff, Shane. However, it should be noted that solid waste is approximately +/-75% water (can be a LOT more depending on what you've eaten)...and that water must either be evaporated, drained off and/or absorbed by added dry material (peatmoss) for either composting OR dessicating to be successfully accomplished.

As for TP, that has to break down too. So while you can use as much as you like, I question the advisability of using just any premium TP...some of those can remain intact in a jar of water for a month or longer, which means they won't create a blockage (nothing for 'em TO block in a composter or dessicator), but they don't break down very easily either, 'cuz they have a lot of added fiber for strength and also creams for softness that don't break down easily either. So it's advisable to stick with the same quick-dissolve TP that's necessary to use in any marine sanitation sytem. And of course, wet wipes, baby wipes, tampons etc are as much of a 'no no' in these systems as they are in marine toilets and plumbing.

And then there are incinerating toilets...:(
 
Indeed. On any new boat I reckon you have to check to see how many pumps it takes to get stuff out. Something easily visible like a bit of red paper napkin or fruit can be good. On my boat it is 15 pumps. (But then again maybe I'm a bit anal...)
 
i agree with jeremy and others. Also, having two of things gives clues as to how things should go back...

More water and a dessertspoonful of bran per day for anyone who "goes" once a week! This is very unhealthy: the body extracts nutirnets from food but waste products should be out asooner - otherwise not-so healthy stuff starts getting extracted. Well, that's what i was told.

the small 12v fans near bogs are ok but don't move a whole load of air really and they drone and drone at night so if they are solar powered, they still need an off switch..
 
Hi headmistress/Peggie/miss?? and thanks for your continued interest in the post. I feel that we don't quite agree on our ideal choice of system, but the idea of the post is to bounce ideas and receive advice and that has helped.

I agree with your last coments on the break down of TP, but only in the context of a composting toilet. Surely in a dessicating toilet your goal is to simply hold the waste in a dried (less offensive) form until you can dispose of it (on land). After finally get rid, it wouldn't really matter when you buried it if it took an extra 6 months to decompose, if you burned it, it would burn better or if disposed of in an appropriate bin, it's just a few extra grams of TP. As you mentioned, the liquid content of solid matter is around 75%, so I'd have thought that the use of TP that doesn't just turn to mush when it gets wet would be an advantage in providing extra surface area within the solids container for moisture to evaporate from, thus leaving only 25% of the original solid material + some undecomposed TP.

Although the advice and feeling towards the dessicating toilet system that I have received from the replies to the post have been at best "lukewarm", no-one seems to have provided that one good reason to condem the idea, especially when compared to the marine systems that are in common use already.

Maybe we're not finished debating yet?
 
This is getting far too theoretical for my liking!
Regardless of the merits or otherwise of the desiccating loos, the fact remains, that in practice and as far as I can tell from their web site, one needs to go traipsing over the lifelines, the pontoons and the marina with a heavy bucketfull of ...er, how shall I put it?.. 'waste matter'. Also this bucket didn't seem to have a lid on it!
And this pre-supposes that the marina... or wherever, has a disposal facility. And not just a loo but somewhere that can take that amount of 'waste matter' in one go. (no pun intended!) And then one would need to give it a wash-out I would think.
No no no... this idea just doesn't fly...
Not with me anyway.
The best way has to be:- use the heads with an keen awareness of what one is putting down it, keep the heads well maintained, and either dump the waste at sea in a eco-friendly, socially-aware way or pump-out at a marina, (and these are few and far between).
IMHO, of course.
 
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