To the boat owners who live in Wales or marina staff in Wales, I need your opinions!

[Mathilde]

Hi all,

I am a Research Assistant at Bangor University working on a new project in collaboration with Natural Resources Wales on methods used to limit the spread of marine non-native species (biosecurity). The aim of this research is to get a better understanding of the attitudes and opinions of boat owners and marina staff to non-native species and methods to prevent their spread. We need your views to create an appropriate marine biosecurity plan for Wales. Overall, we aim for an appropriate biosecurity plan with the least constraints possible while protecting the environment. Your answers will help towards advising Welsh Government on developing an actual marine biosecurity plan. In order to assess it, I am conducting a survey across Wales using on-line questionnaires. It would be great if you could help and fill in the questionnaire. The questionnaire will take approximately 30 minutes. And if you share your opinions you get a chance to win £50 in Amazon vouchers in our prize draw.

Here is the link for the English version: http://marinebiosecuritywales.limequery.com/index.php/836847/lang-en

And Welsh version: http://marinebiosecuritywales.limequery.com/index.php/836847/lang-cy

Thank you very much in advance for helping me out with this; your opinions are highly valued!

Mathilde.

 

[Vitesse]

Gosh! I don't think I'd recognise a non native if it hit me in the face.

Good thing I don't live in Wales. It seems very complicated.

 

[Seastoke]

Gosh! I don't think I'd recognise a non native if it hit me in the face.

Good thing I don't live in Wales. It seems very complicated.

scousers .poles

 

[TwoHooter]

Gosh! I don't think I'd recognise a non native if it hit me in the face. Good thing I don't live in Wales. It seems very complicated.

Yes, Vitesse, it is complicated. And terrifying. Invasive non-native species are causing havoc all over the world. Here's one example from personal experience. My wife's daughter lives in the Cayman Islands where the native species at risk of being wiped out by an invader, the Lion Fish, which has been catastrophic for the health of coral reefs all over the Caribbean. They prey on small fish (removing a link from the food chain) and are threatening several coral species with extinction. On Cayman the diving community is struggling to control the wretched things because if they don't succeed not only will the glory of the Wall be lost, the diving side of the tourism trade will be wiped out. In the UK we have problems already with Carpet Sea-Squirt, Chinese Mitten Crab, Asian Clam, and Zebra Mussel. The common factor is that when a species is transported from its natural environment to one where there are no natural predators, tolerable climatic conditions, and a satisfactory food supply, it's the non-native that wins.

Glad you don't live in Wales? Doesn't matter where you live. If this problem gets much bigger expect a lot more controls on recreational boating. Of course it's the ocean-going freighters and cruise ships that are the biggest problem, but guess who has the muscle to protect their interests. A clue:- It isn't me or you.

If the Welsh Government's survey concludes that recreational boat and marina owners don't understand or care about this issue you may be quite surprised at the outcome for recreational boating. Of course if you never go more than ten miles from your berth it probably won't affect you, but anyone who cruises over a wide range needs to start thinking about this now and working with those who are studying the problem.

 

[TwoHooter]

scousers .poles

This comment contributes nothing useful to any discussion of a serious subject and in my opinion it tarnishes this forum.

 

[Tranona]

Yes, Vitesse, it is complicated. And terrifying. Invasive non-native species are causing havoc all over the world. Here's one example from personal experience. My wife's daughter lives in the Cayman Islands where the native species at risk of being wiped out by an invader, the Lion Fish, which has been catastrophic for the health of coral reefs all over the Caribbean. They prey on small fish (removing a link from the food chain) and are threatening several coral species with extinction. On Cayman the diving community is struggling to control the wretched things because if they don't succeed not only will the glory of the Wall be lost, the diving side of the tourism trade will be wiped out. In the UK we have problems already with Carpet Sea-Squirt, Chinese Mitten Crab, Asian Clam, and Zebra Mussel. The common factor is that when a species is transported from its natural environment to one where there are no natural predators, tolerable climatic conditions, and a satisfactory food supply, it's the non-native that wins.

Glad you don't live in Wales? Doesn't matter where you live. If this problem gets much bigger expect a lot more controls on recreational boating. Of course it's the ocean-going freighters and cruise ships that are the biggest problem, but guess who has the muscle to protect their interests. A clue:- It isn't me or you.

If the Welsh Government's survey concludes that recreational boat and marina owners don't understand or care about this issue you may be quite surprised at the outcome for recreational boating. Of course if you never go more than ten miles from your berth it probably won't affect you, but anyone who cruises over a wide range needs to start thinking about this now and working with those who are studying the problem.

Perhaps you can share with us the evidence that invasive species are a problem in the UK coastal waters 9such as the welsh coast) and that they is spread by leisure boats.

It is not helpful to take examples from other parts of the world and the examples you give for the UK have not been introduced by leisure boats. The movements of leisure boats in both coastal waters and in and out of our coastal waters is tiny compared with the movements of commercial shipping (which is indeed the source of some invasive species).

It is lazy science bordering on scare mongering to suggest that "we are all guilty" and should expect some restrictions or controls in the future without clear provable evidence as justification.

As you may have seen in the recent debates on MCZs there is a lot of similar bad science going on, usually coming from environmental pressure groups seeking to restrict our activities. Fortunately in recent times government has started to be more sceptical of some of the unsupported claims when framing laws and regulations, so those promoting such restrictions will need to be very sure of their grounds, otherwise they are likely to find strong opposition.

 

[Vitesse]

My first reply may have been made at wine o'clock. The problem Twohooters describes are obviously of concern but in a different league.

My thoughts looking at the survey were that any problem from leisure boats is minimal and the idea of decontaminating boats (lift and pressure wash? would have to be at both ends of a trip) is a non starter. Maybe some sort of underwater jet wash might do or compulsory anti fouling. In reality I reckon most boats are antifouled and those that aren't get trailered home and washed down. Not many mobos make long journeys where non natives could be picked up.

Is there a chance that large commercial vessels bring this stuff in and leisure boats possibly go on to distribute it step by step along the coast?

 

[RAI]

Lorna was the last to ask a similar question, but there were earlier versions. She asked:-

Good afternoon to everyone!
My name is Lorna and I am currently in my final year studying for a BSc in Marine Science with the Scottish Association for Marine Science (SAMS) and the University of the Highlands and Islands. For my dissertation, I am conducting research further to my interest in invasive non-native species.

Following on from previous studies, I aim to gauge the public and commercial sectors' level of interest, understanding and concern about invasive non-native species; and furthermore, attempt to ascertain whether current advertising campaigns are both efficient and effective, or could otherwise be improved.

I would very much appreciate it if you could take the time - should take no longer than 5 minutes - to complete an online survey found at: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/InvasiveSpeciesCampaigns

Many thanks for your time in advance,
Lorna
Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...ter-campaign-survey/page3#TSzZT4Q47CDMRgZ7.99

I think there were earlier threads too.

 

[shaunksb]

It would be great if you could help and fill in the questionnaire. The questionnaire will take approximately 30 minutes..

HOW long?

I want to remain constructive with my criticism but you cannot possibly expect to gauge a wide variety of options with a survey that takes that long to complete. People have things to do.

As a significant proportion of boats in Wales are owned and used by people who live outside of Wales how are you going to gauge all their opinions?

I only got as far as this

Q2 Have you or people you know encountered any marine non-native species?

I am going around now interviewing the people I know.

It may take some time...


_____________________________

 

[chrishelen]

Perhaps you can share with us the evidence that invasive species are a problem in the UK coastal waters 9such as the welsh coast) and that they is spread by leisure boats.

It is not helpful to take examples from other parts of the world and the examples you give for the UK have not been introduced by leisure boats. The movements of leisure boats in both coastal waters and in and out of our coastal waters is tiny compared with the movements of commercial shipping (which is indeed the source of some invasive species).

It is lazy science bordering on scare mongering to suggest that "we are all guilty" and should expect some restrictions or controls in the future without clear provable evidence as justification.

As you may have seen in the recent debates on MCZs there is a lot of similar bad science going on, usually coming from environmental pressure groups seeking to restrict our activities. Fortunately in recent times government has started to be more sceptical of some of the unsupported claims when framing laws and regulations, so those promoting such restrictions will need to be very sure of their grounds, otherwise they are likely to find strong opposition.

Good post.

 

[Seastoke]

Ok i was out of order but does not the tide or sea birds or species that migrate ,i suggest more is carried by bottles that are thrown in by peeps with their name in ,your prof roy

 

[Tranona]

Good post.

Thanks. Having spent half a lifetime supervising student projects from undergraduate up to doctorate, I sometimes despair of my colleagues allowing (indeed, probably encouraging) their students to pursue such poorly thought out research projects with badly constructed questionnaires - and this one is allegedly at Masters level.

 

[Seastoke]

Yes i am a sea urchin , sorry for liking a joke

 

[RAI]

If they let us use biocide anti-fouling, as big ships do, we would carry less species evasive or not.

 

[TwoHooter]

I am sorry that I seem to have rubbed Tranona up the wrong way, but here's my reply to his post.

Perhaps you can share with us the evidence that invasive species are a problem in the UK coastal waters 9such as the welsh coast) and that they is spread by leisure boats.

Not sure if they are a real problem in the UK yet but see the first page of Reeds 2015 edition and the greenblue poster - here's the link but it doesn't work for me: http://www.thegreenblue.org.uk/PDF/NNIS%20poster%20new%202-10-12.pdf

I never said INNS are spread by leisure boats. My actual words were: 'If this problem gets much bigger expect a lot more controls on recreational boating. Of course it's the ocean-going freighters and cruise ships that are the biggest problem...'

It is not helpful to take examples from other parts of the world...

Yes it is. We all hope it will never be as bad in the UK but the overseas examples do serve as a warning of just how bad it might get.

....and the examples you give for the UK have not been introduced by leisure boats. The movements of leisure boats in both coastal waters and in and out of our coastal waters is tiny compared with the movements of commercial shipping (which is indeed the source of some invasive species).

But that's what I said myself. I repeat: ' Of course it's the ocean-going freighters and cruise ships that are the biggest problem'.

It is lazy science bordering on scare mongering to suggest that "we are all guilty" and should expect some restrictions or controls in the future without clear provable evidence as justification.

I didn't say that we are all guilty.

As you may have seen in the recent debates on MCZs there is a lot of similar bad science going on, usually coming from environmental pressure groups seeking to restrict our activities. Fortunately in recent times government has started to be more sceptical of some of the unsupported claims when framing laws and regulations, so those promoting such restrictions will need to be very sure of their grounds, otherwise they are likely to find strong opposition.

Good. I agree with that. But just to make sure there is no further room for misunderstanding the threat I was referring to is controls on recreational boating and the point I was trying (and, sadly, failing) to make is that if we don't take the issue seriously, and show the government that we are taking it seriously, we could be faced with controls which none of us want. I do not think we should be flippant about this. To repeat my own words again: 'anyone who cruises over a wide range needs to start thinking about this now and working with those who are studying the problem.'

 

[Tranona]

I am sorry that I seem to have rubbed Tranona up the wrong way, but here's my reply to his post.



Not sure if they are a real problem in the UK yet but see the first page of Reeds 2015 edition and the greenblue poster - here's the link but it doesn't work for me: http://www.thegreenblue.org.uk/PDF/NNIS%20poster%20new%202-10-12.pdf

I never said INNS are spread by leisure boats. My actual words were: 'If this problem gets much bigger expect a lot more controls on recreational boating. Of course it's the ocean-going freighters and cruise ships that are the biggest problem...'



Yes it is. We all hope it will never be as bad in the UK but the overseas examples do serve as a warning of just how bad it might get.



But that's what I said myself. I repeat: ' Of course it's the ocean-going freighters and cruise ships that are the biggest problem'.



I didn't say that we are all guilty.



Good. I agree with that. But just to make sure there is no further room for misunderstanding the threat I was referring to is controls on recreational boating and the point I was trying (and, sadly, failing) to make is that if we don't take the issue seriously, and show the government that we are taking it seriously, we could be faced with controls which none of us want. I do not think we should be flippant about this. To repeat my own words again: 'anyone who cruises over a wide range needs to start thinking about this now and working with those who are studying the problem.'

The attitude that controls are inevitable is the "we are all guilty" - why are they inevitable?

If you read the history of the seahorse/eel grass saga in Studland you will see why taking examples from elsewhere is so dangerous. An example often quoted in this context is Australia which does indeed have a problem with invasive non native species, and yachts are a problem - but the context is entirely different and there is evidence to support the case for the controls they use.

My concern is that students are being let loose (and as you see this is not the first one, but actually the third on these fora) asking the same irrelevant questions. How can anybody have a view on the proposed controls when there is no evidence that there is a problem to control? If there is research required by students it is in identifying what the problem is rather than trying to find attitudes to something that does not currently exist.

The basis of good research is identify the problem, place it in a context, generate relevant questions that might solve the problem, design a research strategy, collect evidence, draw conclusions.. This "research" fails at the first stage. There is not an identifiable problem in relation to leisure craft. Of course there may well be, in which case the start point is asking exactly that question, but of course that is difficult because that needs real research, not a simplistic questionnaire aimed at people who have no idea what it is all about.

Don't think anybody would have a problem working with researchers who are asking the right questions, although in this case it is unlikely that individual leisure boat owners would have much to contribute.

 

[Leaforge]

Nasty tubeworm outbreak in PD last summer, props and shafts caked solid, caused no end of problems for lots of peps!

 

[TwoHooter]

The attitude that controls are inevitable is the "we are all guilty" - why are they inevitable?

Has anyone said that controls are inevitable? What I said myself was: 'If the Welsh Government's survey concludes that recreational boat and marina owners don't understand or care about this issue you may be quite surprised at the outcome for recreational boating.' The whole point of my original post was to try and say that there is a potential threat of controls and it isn't a good idea to respond flippantly to this threat; it would be better to respond constructively. I was influenced by this statement in the original post: 'Your answers will help towards advising Welsh Government on developing an actual marine biosecurity plan.' I now wonder whether the Welsh Government have anything to do with this work or whether it is simply a post-grad student trying to find something to research. If the OP is following this thread I invite them to explain exactly what is the Welsh Government's involvement with and/or endorsement of her research.

If you read the history of the seahorse/eel grass saga in Studland you will see why taking examples from elsewhere is so dangerous. An example often quoted in this context is Australia which does indeed have a problem with invasive non native species, and yachts are a problem - but the context is entirely different and there is evidence to support the case for the controls they use.

I accept that an example of the effect of an INNS in one place is not predictive of the effects of all INNS in all places. So to that extent the use of examples is dangerous. In other words, if someone says that because there are problems with INNS in Australia, or the Cayman islands, or the River Thames there will inevitably be problems everywhere, then that's wrong. But on the other hand it strikes me as equally dangerous to say that we don't need to be concerned about the issue simply because we don't know whether there will be problems with INNS in a particular place, or what the cause of such problems might be.

My concern is that students are being let loose (and as you see this is not the first one, but actually the third on these fora) asking the same irrelevant questions.

I did not know that this was the third such survey. That is obviously a concern.

How can anybody have a view on the proposed controls when there is no evidence that there is a problem to control? If there is research required by students it is in identifying what the problem is rather than trying to find attitudes to something that does not currently exist....... Don't think anybody would have a problem working with researchers who are asking the right questions, although in this case it is unlikely that individual leisure boat owners would have much to contribute.

I wasn't aware that there are any proposed controls yet. I thought controls were a possible future threat that merited constructive engagement now.

 

[Tranona]

Has anyone said that controls are inevitable? What I said myself was: 'If the Welsh Government's survey concludes that recreational boat and marina owners don't understand or care about this issue you may be quite surprised at the outcome for recreational boating.' The whole point of my original post was to try and say that there is a potential threat of controls and it isn't a good idea to respond flippantly to this threat; it would be better to respond constructively. I was influenced by this statement in the original post: 'Your answers will help towards advising Welsh Government on developing an actual marine biosecurity plan.' I now wonder whether the Welsh Government have anything to do with this work or whether it is simply a post-grad student trying to find something to research. If the OP is following this thread I invite them to explain exactly what is the Welsh Government's involvement with and/or endorsement of her research.



I accept that an example of the effect of an INNS in one place is not predictive of the effects of all INNS in all places. So to that extent the use of examples is dangerous. In other words, if someone says that because there are problems with INNS in Australia, or the Cayman islands, or the River Thames there will inevitably be problems everywhere, then that's wrong. But on the other hand it strikes me as equally dangerous to say that we don't need to be concerned about the issue simply because we don't know whether there will be problems with INNS in a particular place, or what the cause of such problems might be.



I did not know that this was the third such survey. That is obviously a concern.



I wasn't aware that there are any proposed controls yet. I thought controls were a possible future threat that merited constructive engagement now.

I can only assume that you have not read and attempted to complete the questionaire.

It assumes that this is all a "done deal" and we are being asked to comment on how reasonable it all is. I doubt anybody could give reasoned answers to the loaded questions that are posed about things that are unknown or do not even exist yet.

The whole survey is appallingly constructed and the questions just seem to come out of thin air. As I said earlier, I am amazed that such a poor instrument has been allowed out.

If it had started off with an explanation of the previous research that had been conducted to show that leisure boats in Wales were responsible for transmitting non invasive species from marina to marina, with references and examples, and that proposals had been formulated to reduce this then it might have stood a chance. However, it does not seem that any such evidence exists (the introductory page so only that they "can" which is a long way from saying that they do), but goes into detail about what the controls might be. How can one have an opinion about a problem that does not seem to exist? let alone remedies for a seemingly non existent problem? And why the long list of questions trying to find out attitude to environmental issues in general?

As I suggested in an earlier post, a research project should be clearly grounded in a real world problem and have a theoretical framework to set it into a context. This (if there is anything to research) leads to a set of research questions designed to find answers to the specific problems identified. If a questionnaire is used it must be aimed at those who have some knowledge of the subject and the detailed questions posed must be written in a way that the answers provide useful insight into the problem.

This questionnaire (like the earlier ones) does not seem to be the result of such a process. This is hardly surprising given that it would have failed at the first stage - that is where is the evidence that this is a "real" problem.

You are right to be concerned about how much official involvement there is in this project. Academics often have difficulty in finding their students something useful to research. Research into the "real" potential problem, that is do leisure boats transmit invasive species from one port to another requires time and resources that need significant funding and are unlikely to be completed within the 3 months or so a student has to do their project.

So the fall back position seems to be...well, lets assume they do and ask boaters etc what they think about the controls that may be introduced to stop it. And while we are at it lets find out a bit about their overall environmental attitude. No cost - whack a questionnaire on a few forums and you get lots of (meaningless) data to turn into pretty charts.

What is so depressing is the lack of intellectual rigour. This would simply not meet the level descriptors for an undergraduate project, never mind a Masters level piece of work. Equally depressing is the thought that such poor quality work might just get through into "official" policy!

 

[RAI]

I wonder if the real concern is of English invasive yachtsmen getting into Welsh waters and inflating the mooring fees..