To scrap or keep an engine, to scrap or keep a boat?!

[James W]

It seems I never learn.

New boat, same engine dilemma. The new boat has an ageing VP MD1B requiring a top end rebuild, and so yesterday I had an engineer pop over to give me a quote on the work.

The professional's verdict: scrap the obsolete engine and replace it with a more reliable, current engine with modern stern gear.

The old engine in situ has parts currently being refurbished and so will have a good as new exhaust manifold and cylinder head, but it will still be a 40 year old engine......and a Volvo Penta. Can I justify the cost of a new engine with a young family? Can I risk going to sea with them onboard and an engine with a question mark over it?

In truth, if I didn't really like the boat (Tomahawk 25) and it wasn't so much hassle, i'd flog it as a project and buy another with a newish engine already fitted. I've even toyed with the idea of buying another with a newish engine and swopping all the parts over (madness overtook me for a short while)!

If I do take the plunge, I fully intend to keep the boat for long enough to make it pay (especially as it could do with new sails as well), but there are so many cheap boats on the market at the moment I could just move on. The Tomahawk owes me very little and is in fantastic condition having been kept well stored for many years.

What to do chaps, any thoughts gratefully received!

James

 

[DHV90]

a well maintained engine can be reliable regardless of age or hours. Try doing the work yourself, save a fortune, be able to fix stuff when it goes wrong in future and more money for the family.

 

[Daydream believer]

I do not know why it is always suggested to scrap engines
I used to have about 15 concrete mixers & 7 or 8 dumpers & when they were scrapped I kept the engines & had them reconned
If I had a breakdown ( often due to deliberate damage) I just swopped the engines over to save time on site

I know mixers are different to boats (but they really got ill treated) but if you take the engine out & take it to a "non marine" engineers (we used Thurston engineering at Ongar, but they are probably gone now) they can give it a full recon & you have an engine that is virtually new.
Do not bother with getting engineers to come to you -It adds to the cost & is not hard to do-take it out & avoid the marine boys.
They are not difficult to re install, just a bit of hassle, make sure you clean the fuel tank & check the fuel lines etc grease the throttle & gear controls & you have an engine you can rely on.
Bit harder with a sail drive, but you can change the seal at the same time & check the engine mountings.

It must add to resale value when you finally decide to sell. A tomahawk is not a bad boat - you can get a lot worse- so it could be worth keeping if sound

 

[Jim@sea]

Sell it and move on. Once you lose confidence in the engine in your boat you become reluctant to go out to sea.
If you were to keep it buy an engine and have it re-conditioned yourself.
Near me (this week) someone with a 40 year old boat bought a reconditioned Perkins when he ran it the engine overheated as it has a cracked block, then he found a painted over plate which says it is a Volvo.
Unfortunately he does not go on line as I have told him to name the firm.

 

[Lakesailor]

a well maintained engine can be reliable regardless of age or hours. Try doing the work yourself, save a fortune, be able to fix stuff when it goes wrong in future and more money for the family.

Quite. A 40 year old diesel engine should have plenty of life left.
A lot of boat engine problems are to do with short duty cycles and infrequent use. The bits that hang around it are more likely to need fettling.

 

[Daydream believer]

Sell it and move on. Once you lose confidence in the engine in your boat you become reluctant to go out to sea.
If you were to keep it buy an engine and have it re-conditioned yourself.
Near me (this week) someone with a 40 year old boat bought a reconditioned Perkins when he ran it the engine overheated as it has a cracked block, then he found a painted over plate which says it is a Volvo.
Unfortunately he does not go on line as I have told him to name the firm.

Some Volvos use Perkins blocks & re jig for marine use so that is not abnormal ( the branding not the cracked block!!!)

 

[Jim@sea]

The professional's verdict: scrap the obsolete engine and replace it with a more reliable, current engine with modern stern gear.

Depends who the Professional is, does he earn his living by selling new engines.
I would try and find a garage who does engine overhauls, take the engine to them and ask them to strip it, you can then decide to have the crank reground, engine rebored with oversized pistons, head skimmed with new valves etc. Basic stuff really.

 

[dylanwinter]

a well maintained engine can be reliable regardless of age or hours. Try doing the work yourself, save a fortune, be able to fix stuff when it goes wrong in future and more money for the family.

I have heard people say that

but when an engine is 40 years old everything around it - fuel lines, mounts, back end....

and spares are always a pain

Harmony (centaur) has a fairly new engine (98) I think and among the bills I saw one for 2K for replacing back end gubbins - not on the engine but on a new cutlass etc

bloomin frightening

no matter how good your maintenance the thing is worn out in places no maintenance schedule can ever reach

maintaining a 40 year old lump is fine if the engineering gives you pleasure - and you like stripping it to the big end but if you like sailing more than fettling then an old engine is a frustrating burden

..... there are some very good outboards around and the ultra long shafts go really deep

I still think an ultra long shaft and a hole in the cockpit floor is a viable plan for a good but low value boat with a scrapper of an engine

I had a miserable time with the 50 year old MD1 and its installation - I lost ten weeks one summer and 12 weeks the next

the engines do not go qwrong when the boat is ashore but they go wrong when you want to be sailing

D

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=2938

 

[bedouin]

Any work on an MD1B that requires expensive parts is not really feasible - I have an MD2B and accept that if anything goes seriously wrong then it will be a replacement job. That said I have never had any concerns about putting to sea with my young family on board - it may be old. noisy, a bit rough and a bit oily, but I never have any doubt that it is going to keep going. Engineers have been telling me to replace my MD2B ever since I bought the boat 15 years ago but it still soldiers on with a minimum of work.

However these are fairly common and so it is possible to pick up parts second hand. It would be viable option to pick up spares, or even a whole engine, fairly cheaply and use that to keep it running a bit longer.

I think the seductive "more reliable engine" mantra is deceptive. The MD1B/2B are extremely reliable and long lived engines and the common modern equivalents won't come close - how often do you find people talking about replacing engines much more modern? IMHO the only engine currently available that comes anywhere near is BUKH, and they are expensive.

To be honest unless you think that the boat is just what you want then a new engine seems a waste of money - you are better off getting rid of the old boat for whatever you can (or nothing) and buying something more suitable. As you must know you won't get the money you spend back if you sell shortly afterwards, but having an old engine will make it harder to sell, and a non-working engine could make it impossible.

 

[Jim@sea]

Some Volvos use Perkins blocks & re jig for marine use so that is not abnormal ( the branding not the cracked block!!!)

I would hesitate to suggest that when the engine was being offered for sale would not a Volvo engine not fetch a higher price than a Perkins and it also shows that when they sprayed over "everything" their lack of attention to detail was rubbish as they only had to put a bit of masking tape over the plate with the model and engine number.

 

[capt_courageous]

A reliable engine is a must, especially with a young family. Many older Volvos were raw water cooled which resulted in bad corrosion and salt blocked water ways. That is what killed mine. The cost of parts is eye watering. I went for a Beta and so far so good.
Is it worth putting a new engine in a Tomahawk which you don't really like? You would have difficulty selling it for much more than the cost of the newly fitted engine. I think your choice is between getting rid of the boat now or trying for a reasonably priced recon. If there is such a think for a Volvo. It very likely also needs a re-bore, new piston etc,etc.,etc. Buy another boat so you can concentrate on sailing.

 

[James W]

A reliable engine is a must, especially with a young family. Many older Volvos were raw water cooled which resulted in bad corrosion and salt blocked water ways. That is what killed mine. The cost of parts is eye watering. I went for a Beta and so far so good.
Is it worth putting a new engine in a Tomahawk which you don't really like? You would have difficulty selling it for much more than the cost of the newly fitted engine. I think your choice is between getting rid of the boat now or trying for a reasonably priced recon. If there is such a think for a Volvo. It very likely also needs a re-bore, new piston etc,etc.,etc. Buy another boat so you can concentrate on sailing.

The trouble is that I do like the Tomahawk. Good size, sails well, nice cabin. If I didn't like it the choice would be much easier.

 

[James W]

I know mixers are different to boats (but they really got ill treated) but if you take the engine out & take it to a "non marine" engineers (we used Thurston engineering at Ongar, but they are probably gone now) they can give it a full recon & you have an engine that is virtually new.
Do not bother with getting engineers to come to you -It adds to the cost & is not hard to do-take it out & avoid the marine boys.
They are not difficult to re install, just a bit of hassle, make sure you clean the fuel tank & check the fuel lines etc grease the throttle & gear controls & you have an engine you can rely on.

Thurston Engineering are still there, and they might well be getting a call on Monday! I know that a new engine would transform the boat and completely lessen the stress factor.....but the cost!

 

[doug748]

Run the engine whilst it runs and put a bracket on the back for a 4hp longshaft (c £300) to get you home.

The engine may keep going till you want to sell the boat.

If it croaks, get a new engine, either 10hp inboard or larger outboard; or re cycle through E Bay.

You have not made a loss, your sailing asset is simply marked down by depreciation, like the car.

 

[carl170]

Run the engine whilst it runs and put a bracket on the back for a 4hp longshaft (c £300) to get you home.

This.

Pretty much every boat at our club has an outboard bracket and an engine on it, or tucked away. Any issues with the inboard and the outboard can easily be pressed into service. I don't think most engines get much use, which I suspect causes the problems. They certainly seem to have more issues than any car engine I know!

I wouldn't be happy without a spare anyway.

There are also owners who dont use the inboard much anyway, the old engine just sits there as ballast!

Just my view of course.

Regards

Carl

PS A guy at our club has a tomahawk and it seems a cracking boat!

 

[LeonF]

I've been pondering the very question this morning. My engine is a 2010B Having had a problem with my high rise exhaust at the end of last season that no amount of caustic, HCL etc would shift, it is corroded I now believe, I bit the bullet and replaced it for £400 (Volvo !). When I popped the boat back in the water in April all seemed well, but then a severe loss of power under load. The engine then refused to start, sounded like a seized starter motor, later in the day. To cut a long story short, there was slight moisture in the chambers, filthy injectors etc and the engine came out, relatively easily, on the sailing club mast crane. The engineer seems to know his stuff, said he had some probs getting into it, but a rebuild quote, re-installation etc is around 5k. It needs new pistons as they are pitted when viewed under a microscope, parts alone are about 2.5K. A new Volvo will be around 8.2K as the exhaust is on the opposite side, new engine beds, etc. I'm pondering. If the engineer knows his stuff then I reckon a rebuild must be worth it ? Is there anything in particular I should ask him about the rebuild ?

 

[dylanwinter]

This.

Pretty much every boat at our club has an outboard bracket and an engine on it, or tucked away. Any issues with the inboard and the outboard can easily be pressed into service. I don't think most engines get much use, which I suspect causes the problems. They certainly seem to have more issues than any car engine I know!

I wouldn't be happy without a spare anyway.

There are also owners who dont use the inboard much anyway, the old engine just sits there as ballast!

Just my view of course.

Regards

Carl

PS A guy at our club has a tomahawk and it seems a cracking boat!

6hp - Centaur - 3.5 tonnes - half throttle - 5 knots

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQRF2cLPwUk

 

[clyst]

I do not know why it is always suggested to scrap engines
I used to have about 15 concrete mixers & 7 or 8 dumpers & when they were scrapped I kept the engines & had them reconned
If I had a breakdown ( often due to deliberate damage) I just swopped the engines over to save time on site

I know mixers are different to boats (but they really got ill treated) but if you take the engine out & take it to a "non marine" engineers (we used Thurston engineering at Ongar, but they are probably gone now) they can give it a full recon & you have an engine that is virtually new.
Do not bother with getting engineers to come to you -It adds to the cost & is not hard to do-take it out & avoid the marine boys.
They are not difficult to re install, just a bit of hassle, make sure you clean the fuel tank & check the fuel lines etc grease the throttle & gear controls & you have an engine you can rely on.
Bit harder with a sail drive, but you can change the seal at the same time & check the engine mountings.

It must add to resale value when you finally decide to sell. A tomahawk is not a bad boat - you can get a lot worse- so it could be worth keeping if sound

Absolutely . I don't get why modern is best when the older engines were designed and manufactured for marine use . A purpose built marine engine ,well maintained will out last a vehicle designed engine of which most of them are,by decades . People scoff at the old heavy elderly Bukh engine but a more reliable engine you will be pushed to find.
my advice would be recondition the VP and enjoy reliable service for another 30to40years .

 

[James W]

This.

Pretty much every boat at our club has an outboard bracket and an engine on it, or tucked away. Any issues with the inboard and the outboard can easily be pressed into service. I don't think most engines get much use, which I suspect causes the problems. They certainly seem to have more issues than any car engine I know!

I wouldn't be happy without a spare anyway.

There are also owners who dont use the inboard much anyway, the old engine just sits there as ballast!

Just my view of course.

Regards

Carl

PS A guy at our club has a tomahawk and it seems a cracking boat!

Good point. I have a collection of long shaft outboards anyway so I'd only need a bracket. I think i'll see what the non marine engineers say first and go from there....at the very least I'll then be armed with costs from every conceivable eventuality!

She is a lovely boat, and i'm loathe to let her go. At least this way I'll have done all the work and will know her inside out should anything go wrong.

 

[capt_courageous]

Sorry but I misread your post. In that case I guess you would really like to keep the boat and get a good engine. Cost is obviously important. I would still be against a recon. Patching old bottles at great cost and it is still and 'old' engine when you ever sell the boat. I am very happy with the Beta but that was just one of the 'industrial' based engines. I looked for a second hand engine but they were few and far between and their true condition was unknown. Good luck