Tingle copper thickness and nail size?

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PhillM

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I have a few copper tingles on the boat and we are in the process of taking each one off and sorting the underlying problem. As part of my “make-do-and-mend” kit I want to have some copper sheet and nails – just in case I need to put one on after an accident or similar.

Not being any good at guessing size, I went online and got some 2.5mm copper sheet and 12 mm nails. The sheet is way too stiff and the nails to small.

So, can anyone tell me how thick strong but hand bendable copper sheet is and how long nails to use to nail it on to 7/8th’s planks without going all the way through.

Final question, which silkaflex would you use as waterproof bedding?

Cheers,
 
PhillM said:
I have a few copper tingles on the boat and we are in the process of taking each one off and sorting the underlying problem. As part of my “make-do-and-mend” kit I want to have some copper sheet and nails – just in case I need to put one on after an accident or similar.

Not being any good at guessing size, I went online and got some 2.5mm copper sheet and 12 mm nails. The sheet is way too stiff and the nails to small.

So, can anyone tell me how thick strong but hand bendable copper sheet is and how long nails to use to nail it on to 7/8th’s planks without going all the way through.

Final question, which silkaflex would you use as waterproof bedding?

Cheers,
Click to expand...

Sikaflex 291 (or I believe the latest version is 291i)

I have some 3/4" copper nails . I guess they would do if you think 1/2" are too short.

I have some copper that is 1.5mm(1/16") thick. I guess if annealed it would bend by hand.. just. I also have some that is only 0.5mm. That I am sure will bend easily esp if annealed. ) I suspect it may have been cut from a hot water cylinder
 
Tingles

Certainly 2.5mm is far to thick and as a consequence to rigid to take up any compound curve.
Thin copper sheet often used for roofing is listed in SWG "Standard wire gauge" where 20swg is approx 0.9mm and that is more like the gauge you would want. Even this in its hard state is fairly stiff but small pieces can be annealed by heating to red hot and allowed to cool. This will remove any tendency for it to spring.
Tingles are usually fixed with cut copper tacks and 1/2inch would be a useful size, although these are getting difficult to obtain, also the holes are pre punched into the copper as copper tacks are fairly soft and the points bent. You could use silicon bronze ring shank pins as an alternative and grip like hell hence the trade name "Gripfast"
As far as a bedding compound, Sikaflex would not be my choice, a non setting compound would be preferable e.g. white lead and putty with a touch of grease, bitumastic roofing mastic, Arbomast BR (butyl rubber compound). The area should be dry and primed before fitting. A roll of lead is a useful thing to have handy as its easy to work.
Hope this helps
Phil
 
TobyJug said:
Certainly 2.5mm is far to thick and as a consequence to rigid to take up any compound curve.
Thin copper sheet often used for roofing is listed in SWG "Standard wire gauge" where 20swg is approx 0.9mm and that is more like the gauge you would want. Even this in its hard state is fairly stiff but small pieces can be annealed by heating to red hot and allowed to cool. This will remove any tendency for it to spring.
Tingles are usually fixed with cut copper tacks and 1/2inch would be a useful size, although these are getting difficult to obtain, also the holes are pre punched into the copper as copper tacks are fairly soft and the points bent. You could use silicon bronze ring shank pins as an alternative and grip like hell hence the trade name "Gripfast"
As far as a bedding compound, Sikaflex would not be my choice, a non setting compound would be preferable e.g. white lead and putty with a touch of grease, bitumastic roofing mastic, Arbomast BR (butyl rubber compound). The area should be dry and primed before fitting. A roll of lead is a useful thing to have handy as its easy to work.
Hope this helps

I would second the use of ring shank silcon bronze nails. These have rings around the shaft to enhance grip. Copper nails are not really nails but intended to be rivetted over through a washer inside the plank.
They do not have a lot of inherent grip in the wood. Hence thickness of planks dictates the nail length.
good luck olewill
Click to expand...
 
Thanks guys, all very helpful stuff.

Useful tool Pete, ebay is my next step, then i'll get a measurement.

Re copper nails, I found this supplier, called Jackson Marine, on ebay:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/100grms-C...ixing_MJ&var=590093203712&hash=item43b6d1b82e

Ordered Monday and arrived Thursday.

Bearing in mind, this is all about a temporary repair, I have some red lead putty on board and it sounds like this will do the trick.
 
Hi there

I would still be inclined to use copper tacks, these leave virtually no hole afterwards as they are very sharp & tapered & will not split the timber. (1/2 inch should be long enough) Parallel nails will leave largish holes & could split the timber if they are close together. Copper tacks (short) are placed almost head to head around the patch with non setting sealant beneath A steel nail is used to punch the hole in the copper tingle on a block of wood before fitting & the tingle is no thicker than a tin can (Can of beans type can) It is not structural so its thickness is not really relevant it just has to be malleable & corrosion proof. An old copper lightweight immersion tank is usually just about thick enough. It is not meant for ever, just temporary, although some seem to remain for decades!

John Lilley
 
Thanks John, as a matter of interest, what is the professional surveyers view of tingles?

Overtime, we are in the process of removing the few that we have and checking / fixing underlying issues. Do you think that there presence would "fail" a boat from an insurance perspective?
 
Hi Phil

Well I can't speak for all however, if I was doing the survey and I found tingles, a lot would depend upon where the tingles were fitted, if they are fitted over plank seams close to the keel for instance which is not uncommon on keel stepped masts then I would have to raise an issue and suspect leaking garboard planking because of floor fastenings or other related problems. Sometimes they can be fitted over splits in planking which again, a potential buyer would need to know.

Other times they might be completely inconsequential structurally as they might simply be a circular patch over a bilge drain plug for instance or perhaps over a removed & sealed skin fitting. There is always usually a reason and although the vessel would not be unfairly criticised or start making a mountain out of a molehill a potential new buyer would probably have to investigate the reason.

An existing owner possibly knows why it is there and ultimately takes responsibility for it as, it will be pointed out on the survey but not removed, with a suggestion that if the reason is unknown, further investigate. If the reason is known then and the surveyor thinks it could be a risk therefore notes that on survey.

If there was an incident that caused the vessel to sink in the worst scenario then it is likely the insurers would not support any claim if it was because the owner had awareness of the problem & it had been pointed out in the survey but the owner had absolute confidence in the underlying structure and decided not to make good but for whatever reason, but unfortunately was mistaken.

It is not uncommon for the majority of experienced timber boat owners to know more about their own boat than any surveyor who is spending a relatively short time inspecting could ever possibly know and despite the fact that the surveyor might put certain points down that may or may not be of consequence , the owner of the vessel always has the option of ignoring or taking aboard those comments If they are absolutely confident that the fault is over exaggerated or not of any consequence therefore the owner carries some of the risk of of not undertaking the major recommendations that the surveyor may suggest.



A bit protracted but I hope that helps .I am sure other surveyors have differing views .

John
 
Thanks John, again very helpful. In our case they are there because we found a couple of small patches of soft wood. We checked the inside and that was solid so we treated them with Ronseal Wet Rot wood hardner and after it had dried and the wood was solid again, we covered with a tingle - just to be on the safe side. Non are over seams or anywhere near the keel / garboard plank.
 
Copper sheet can be bought in an annealed state, but is usually sold "half hard". Years ago when I built small steam locomotives with copper boilers I learned that annealing copper was very easy. To do so on thin sheet you just need a big blowlamp. Put the sheet on a simple stand made from wire. Heat from underneath. Do it in poor light so that you can see when it is glowing dull red. You don't need to get the whole sheet red at once, just move the flame along to ensure that all of the copper gets red hot at some point. There is no need to cool it slowly, as you have to for carbon steel. Copper is annealed as soon as it is red and you can save time by quenching it.
 
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