Tiller barrings ??help

[Dodger_jnr]

Hi Guys
Can any one tell me how one goes about replacing ???the barrings or what ever eles you do to take up excessive play on a tiller. (a) Is it a specialist's job
. The boat is a 29ft Gibsea, its one of those tillers that go through the cockpit deck,not over the transum, I know it will be picked up on my survey, I'd like to know roughly the cost of such an undertaking, any advise welcome

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[cliff]

This is another one of the "how long is a piece of string" questions - depends on how much damage (if any) has been done to the rudder shaft, how easy it is to remove the old bearings (or barrings if you prefer). DIY? or the expensive way?

Start with a lift out and placement in cradle / propping up - ~£130 ~ £150?
Remove rudder and shaft
I am assuming (probably incorrectly) that the rudder is not skeg mounted, if it is you need to remove the rudder mounting plate from the bottom of the skeg.
Remove old bushes
Check shaft for wear / damage - don't even think of the cost of replacing.
If shaft not too badly worn give it a good clean and remove any ridges where it will run in the new bearing.
Purchase new bushes or have them made (Made ones £60~80 the pair)
If the shaft is a little worn I would suggest having at least the bottom bush made to order so it can be machined a little tight to take up some if not all of the wear when it swells (assuming the bottom bush is submerged and is water lubricated).
Fit the new bushes (a little epoxy round the bottom edge of the bottom bush will stop it rotating in use if it is sloppy in the rudder tube although it should be a hand tight fit to start with - too much epoxy and the next time you go to change it of the next owner goes to change it it will be a bu**er to get out.
Refit the rudder and check alignment of the bushes is O.K.

Don't be alarmed at this stage if there is free play in the bottom bush - they tends to swell up once submerged and allowed to soak unless you use one of the "modern" plastic type bushes which does not swell so much in water.

That brings us to another question and you will no doubt receive different answers -the question is to go for the old fashioned "Tufnol" type bushes or for the modern "plastic" type bushes. I know Tufnol is a type of plastic but the properties of the two materials are different (Tufnol vs poly whatever). My personal preference is for "Bear Brand Tufnol" as it has a proven track record in marine environments as a bearing material.

Finally (re-antifoul the bottom sides and) pay the nice chappie in the boat yard or marina to plop your boat back in the water.

Talk to some of the "old" hands in your local sailing club or boat yard, they should be able to give you some practical pointers (in exchange for some liquid refreshment?).

If the tiller is not too bad why not leave it until the end of the season and do the lot over the winter? (anti fouling, anodes, rudder bushes etc. etc.)

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[oldsaltoz]

G'day Brian,

I agree with Cliff entirely and add the following:

Some rudder shafts are too long to drop out when the boat is in a stand, so make sure the area under the rudder can be excavated, you may have to dig a hole to get the rudder low enough to clear the bottom of the boat.

To drop the rudder: secure the rudder with a line prior to undoing the fixing at the top of the rudder, normally a bolt, but some have locking tabs or grub screws as well, so have a good look first; have a second person support the rudder when you undo the top, lower slowly on the line, the second person.

I hope this helps

Avagoodweekend........



<hr width=100% size=1> Old Salt Oz /forums/images/icons/cool.gif Growing old is unavoidable. However, growing up is still optional.

 

[aod]

I agree with Brian and Oldsaltoz however I have done this three times now and the best bearings I ever had were graphite impregnated Delrin. All of them absorb water and swell so really it's a bit of a hit and miss operation. I mean leaving enough slack to guess how much the bearing will swell or put it on tight and then ream it out if it swells too much.

Frankly I don't know where you are but personaly I would get it prof fitted.

All up including lift on the South Coast I would think you are looking at £500.

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[dickh]

My friend removed his on a Contessa 28 this winter. He had to excavate a hole to allow the rudder to drop down enough. But found the bearing were only worn in one position, so replaced them at 90º to the original positioning and it has improved considerably. I suspect the rudder tube was not concentric with the rudder post so he's got away with it for a few more years yet.
How much is the play? If it is only a little, say ¼ to ¾mm then I wouldn't bother, but if more the bearings should knock out easily. Pobably the bottom one is worn the most, measure the shaft and allow say ¼mm clearance on a new bearing which should allow for any plastic swelling etc.

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I'd rather be sailing... /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

 

[cliff]

"I have done this three times now and the best bearings I ever had were graphite impregnated Delrin"

Not 3 times on the same boat I hope! /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

The nice chappies at Tufnol have a design service and will design the bearing for you to allow for expansion due to water absorbtion. All you need supply them with is the OD of the shaft (stock in nautical terms) and the ID of the housing (rudder tube) to the nearest 0.001" and they will do the rest so it is not "a bit of a hit and miss operation" nor is there any need to "guess how much the bearing will swell or put it on tight and then ream it out if it swells too much"

I you like you can do the calculations yourself using the formulae and data available on <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.tufnol.co.uk> the Tufnol web site </A> or a simple phone call will get you their design handbook / material specifications on all their products.

As for Delrin, if I was using Delrin I would go for Delrin AF® which is a Teflon® filled Acetal (PolyOxy-Methylene) Homopolymer but still absorbs something like 0.9% water at saturation (ASTM D570 test method). As for graphite impregnated Delrin®, Dupont, the manufacturer of Delrin®, do not seem to list such a product so probably it is not genuine Delrin® /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

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Stay put when I hit you!

 

[aod]

Sadly it is three times on the same boat. In part due to losing the rudder to a submerged lobster pot marker in the Needles Channel and then to crap workmanship by Campers.
No-one has ever suggested Tufnol to me before but I will certainly now investigate it. Can you tell me what your estimation of the durability is. I know that's 'a how long is' kind of question.

I agree with you though. Delrin is crap!

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[cliff]

Tufnol (Bear Brand Grade) properly designed and fitted, used under "normal" conditions could / should last, IMHO anywhere between 5~10 years, I have known them be replaced after 10 years because they "felt loose" (fussy owner).

A lot depends on the condition of the shaft and the "saturated" fit as well as other "hazards".

Normal => No bashing into rocks etc, ~3000NM/annum, Not moored in hard silt area, Tiller not allowed to swing free at mooring.

DelrinAF® is a good substitute but I am old fashioned - if it works don't change it.

If you contact Tufnol specify "Bear Brand" and tell them exactly what the application is. They did mention another product to me last time but I can't for the life of me remember what it was, but from my point of view and experience it does not matter as I am happy with what I use on my own boat and have fitted on several others - no complaints yet!

Little piece of advice though - remember the upper bush is not submerged (usually) therefore does not tighten as much therefore does not need ot be oversize to start with so order / design one top bush (rain only) and one bottom bush (saturated) and dont mix them up.

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Stay put when I hit you!