Tide / Conditions for Round the Island Day Sail?

[PhillM]

I am looking for advice about how to time arriving at the needles channel for a round the island day-sail. We have a (new to us last year ) 1961, 25 foot LOA , wooden hull, long keel yacht. I completed day skipper and have had extensive dingy sailing experience (albiet a good few years ago) and as a family we have spent about 20 days and covered 400 nm this year, all within the Solent. I feel that we are capable of handling the boat, but I am not at all happy that I have the plan together.

I know that its going to be best to have tide with us most of the way, but that would suggest arriving in the Needles channel just as the tide is turning. Reading the Almanac and pilot books, they suggest that this is the worst time to be there. Ideal weather would seem to be a F3/4 on a dry, clear day. The prevailing wind is SW and again the pilot books suggest that wind over tide in the Needles channel is not something to do lightly.
While the boat is seaworthy and well equipped, the last thing I want to do is is scare anyone (kids - or me for that matter).

Oh, I should say, the plan is to go in the spring or summer 2012.

Any advice and suggestions gratefully received.
Thanks,
Phill

 

[Resolution]

Don't do it! The South coast of the IoW has no bolt holes and is pretty dull.

Maybe 30th June would keep the kids interested.....

 

[alant]

I am looking for advice about how to time arriving at the needles channel for a round the island day-sail. We have a (new to us last year ) 1961, 25 foot LOA , wooden hull, long keel yacht. I completed day skipper and have had extensive dingy sailing experience (albiet a good few years ago) and as a family we have spent about 20 days and covered 400 nm this year, all within the Solent. I feel that we are capable of handling the boat, but I am not at all happy that I have the plan together.

I know that its going to be best to have tide with us most of the way, but that would suggest arriving in the Needles channel just as the tide is turning. Reading the Almanac and pilot books, they suggest that this is the worst time to be there. Ideal weather would seem to be a F3/4 on a dry, clear day. The prevailing wind is SW and again the pilot books suggest that wind over tide in the Needles channel is not something to do lightly.
While the boat is seaworthy and well equipped, the last thing I want to do is is scare anyone (kids - or me for that matter).

Oh, I should say, the plan is to go in the spring or summer 2012.

Any advice and suggestions gratefully received.
Thanks,
Phill

Have a look in Reeds at the Tidal Stream Atlases for the Solent & at the beginning of that section for the English Channel.
These will guide you.
Just make sure you are using the correct reference port HW times - Portsmouth for the Solent & Dover for the other.

Where are you starting from?

 

[BelleSerene]

Agree with both posts.

If you're starting from Cowes-ish, start on the ebbing tide and ride the tide down to the Needles, arriving off Hurst Point not too far before the change of tide so you don't have too much wind over tide. Up to a F4 you should be fine anyway. If you arrive too early (and you're not racing!) anchor behind the fort to shelter and wait for the turn of the tide. Or head out of the North passage, round Hurst Point to the north, and take a longer journey to the West of the Shingles.

If you start with the tide though, you'll end up against it with you come back into the Solent from the East. It's a surprisingly long beat back.

I didn't understand your comment 'arriving in the Needles channel just as the tide is turning... is the worst time to be there': that's when it should be ideal. It's wind over tide down there that you want to avoid, so assuming the wind from the SW-ish, it's the strong ebb you particularly want to avoid. The seas get very short there and in a 25' boat you'll feel them.

Your alternative of course is to go for a nice family cruise with somewhere interesting to visit half way. Especially with kids in the colder weather.

But enjoy!

 

[PhillM]

Thanks guys, very helpful.

I should have said that the "kids" are 12 and 16 boys and are keen as mustard to get "out to sea".

We are based in Swanwick Marina and most of our sailing has been day or overnights to Gosport and Yarmouth, so we might break the trip into two or three legs, over a long weekend.

 

[aslabend]

As a dry run you could do a trip to Studland for the night and then back the next day as a warm-up. It'd give you experience of the needles channel and what it can be like. Wind against tide can make it frisky.

For going round the IOW I'd ride the ebb down the western solent to go through the needles last couple of hours of the ebb, by the time you've turned south and then SE, the flood should be helping you round st kats. and eastwards.

 

[The Third Man]

Follow the Round The Island Race Times

With one notable exception the ISC usually get their start times for the Round The Island Race right for boats the size of yours (and mine come to that). They regard the timing for the slower boats as the most important as the hot shots can take care of themselves.
It usually means passing the Needles with about an hour of the ebb to run. By then the flow has lessened so wind over tide etc is not so significant and you only get that last hour of the ebb as a foul tide. But it does mean that you will have the tide with you across the south of the island which is important. Also have a good look at a Tidal Atlas as the tide turns earlier nearer the coast just east of the Needles

I know I am stating the obvious but there is nowhere to hide on the south coast so you need to be sure of your weather.


Enjoy it.

 

[PhillM]

This is really helpful advice, thank you.

I am begining to get a basic plan together.

Would you go on Neeps when the tides are weaker or use Springs to get the maximum benifit?

 

[bedouin]

This is really helpful advice, thank you.

I am begining to get a basic plan together.

Would you go on Neeps when the tides are weaker or use Springs to get the maximum benifit?

I'd probably worry more about fitting the tide to the time of day I wanted to sail than springs or neaps. Note that for a lot of the way round you can largely shelter from adverse tides by keeping close to the shore, the exceptions being Hurst and the bit from St Catz to Dunnose (or even Bembridge).

I would also suggest you might want to start the sail from Yarmouth. That is close to Hurst so there is no chance to get the tide wrong, and gives you options to cut the sail comparatively short at Bembridge or Portsmouth if you find it a bit much.

 

[Fantasie 19]

Just done it (about a week ago) in my mate's boat and loved every minute of it.. well, the downwind "roll" from the Needles to St Catherine's wasn't to everyone's tastes, but the rest was brilliant...

Can't add to the excellent tidal/passage advice given above but some things to bear in mind.... we went round on the tide, and had a good breeze, and we averaged almost 6 knots, and it still took almost 13 hours... went from Port Solent so you can deduct some time for to and from, but it's still a long day...

...take plenty to eat and drink - make hot drinks up in flasks - it's "boring" fighting a cooker to boil water in a swell...

...we're all reasonable sailors but two out of four of us needed Kwells...

...the coastline from the Needles to St Catherine's is a little "samey" but the rest of the trip is brilliant - loads to see, and from St Catherine's round to Ryde is spectacular - just beautiful....

...best sailing day I've ever had - enjoy your trip.

 

[Tranona]

Solent to Poole is arguably a better first "out to sea" adventure. Drop down with the tide to Yarmouth or anchor behind Hurst ready to take the ebb across the bay. Out through North Channel is straightforward and not as potentially scary as the Needles. Even with a SW wind you can make Studland in one tide, and if you wish take the new flood into Poole Harbour.

Return is the opposite. Leave at low water or just before and you can carry the tide well into the Solent. Great sense of achievement to arrive at a new port or anchorage rather than back where you started.

 

[DJE]

This is really helpful advice, thank you.

I am begining to get a basic plan together.

Would you go on Neeps when the tides are weaker or use Springs to get the maximum benifit?

Also remember there are two ways round: clockwise and anticlockwise. I would prefer neaps as all the tidal rips will be weaker and HW will be 06:00 to 08:00 ish. On a day like that you could start at Bembridge leaving just before HW to be off the ledge as the West-going tide starts. This gives you six hours of fair tide to get to the Needles and if the wind is West or Southwest you will have wind and tide together as you come back in through the Needles channel and Hurst.

It's a great sail and not too far is you just do Bembridge to Yarmouth in a day. I don't know why so many people only do it on RTIR day when there are 1000 or more other boats fighting for space.

 

[MontyMariner]

From this solent tides map it looks like you need to arrive at the needles at HW Portsmouth +5 to give minimum wind over tide effect down the needles channel and maximun east going flow south of IOW.
If you can get into the vacinity of Bembridge for around HW Portsmouth -3 or -2 that will give you fair tide back into the solent.
You just need to work out how long it will take you (current assisted) to get from your start point to Hurst Point.
From RYA Tides page Sun 23 October 2011 might be a good day

Portsmouth
Sun 23 October 2011 LW 00:56 1.6m HW 07:47 4.3m LW 13:28 1.6m HW 20:04 4.3m

But from wind guru the weather will be against you - strong wind from south and rain
Next good tide is Sat 05 November 2011 or Sun 06 November 2011

 

[PhillM]

Thanks to everyone for the advice. Having been trying to plan this over the summer (but knowing that we as a team were not really ready this year) I was starting to think that we would never be. Everyone’s help is really appreciated. I am loving the other cruise ideas as well.

MontyMarriner - thanks for the tide advice and date suggestions. Unfortunately, we are currently out of the water with a number of maintenance issues to clear up. Right now I am getting “up-close-and-personal” with stripper, sandpaper, varnish and paint (not all at the same time understand). I guess that’s part of the joys of wooden boat maintenance. Our current plan is to get the boat back in the water in February and then get some practice in before attempting the trip sometime May/June or July.

DJE – agreed. Thanks for the suggestion, I like the idea of Gosport-Yarmouth round the back. I can see how that would work for a fair tide next day back to Swanwick as well.

Tranona – I hadn’t thought about Poole. It somehow seemed more scary going to a unknown port at the end of the adventure (we know Yarmouth and Gosport) so I hadn’t through about that. I’ll get my almanac out tonight and take a look. Would you recommend any particular marina for the overnight?
Asalbend - likewise, I hadn’t thought about Studland either, thanks, great idea.

Fantasie 19 – Sounds like you had a great day! Drinks, food etc, noted, same too about the potential for sea sickness. Day length also noted. Most we have done in a day is so far 6 hours actual sailing, so we will break up the journey.

 

[bluemoongaffer]

Don't want to put you off the round island trip (something I'm planning to do as well) but a trip to Poole on a nice day is a real gem. Poole itself is great and has the feel of a west country holiday destination. Even the main town marina is fun with teens on board - plenty to see on the quay / from the quay.

 

[Tranona]

Two realistic choices for marina in Poole. The marina on the quay is in the centre of the action which can mean noisy or lively depending on your viewpoint. Alternative is Poole Yacht Club just past the ferry terminal. Similar price to the quay, but quiet and only 10 minutes walk across the bridge to the Quay.

Of course also many good anchorages for smaller boats if you want peace and quiet.

Living in Poole I have done the opposite for more than 30 years and it still gives a sense of achievement. Something about arriving at a destination that is more rewarding than just a challenging sail. Mind you I have only once been round the back side of the Island and then only to Freshwater Bay. Driven around it many times and that was enough for me!

 

[Racecruiser]

I agree with the try Poole instead option or starting from Portsmouth and finishing in Yarmouth or Lymington - that's a long way but it's even further if you do a complete circuit round the island. In fact it would be quicker probably to sail to Cherbourg in good conditions. Poole or the solent ports are nicer anyway.

If Poole is your choice do check out the north channel route which is likely to be more comfortable - basically hard right at Hurst Castle follow the beach for a mile or so and then head to Poole once round North Head buoy. There is an inshore passage into Poole harbour which is a good short cut but again do research it as the channel is narrow.

The corners are the lumpy bits notably St Cats and the Needles and as others have said there are no places to go if something happens south of the island.

 

[alant]

Solent to Poole is arguably a better first "out to sea" adventure. Drop down with the tide to Yarmouth or anchor behind Hurst ready to take the ebb across the bay. Out through North Channel is straightforward and not as potentially scary as the Needles. Even with a SW wind you can make Studland in one tide, and if you wish take the new flood into Poole Harbour.

Return is the opposite. Leave at low water or just before and you can carry the tide well into the Solent. Great sense of achievement to arrive at a new port or anchorage rather than back where you started.

Good advice, taking North Channel, even if going around the Island.

For a first timer, going down the Needles Channel, particularly on a spring ebb, can be daunting when past alum bay & approaching the Bridge. Tide there is quite strong & once commited, there is no turning back.

I'd suggest waiting for neaps, which would reduce the lumps off St Catherines & make it easier to punch a foul tide east of the Island.

 

[Ru88ell]

Please see this topic regarding a novice cruise from the Solent to Poole and back, sometime in the late Spring / early Summer 2012

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=290607

 

[onesea]

Just an idea we accidently did our first RIOW this year started at Studland intending on going up Solent ended up passing south of IOW finally finding Chitchester (long story we where actually heading for Lyme Bay!).

Cannot remember my exact tide calc's but left Studland for first off ebb at dawn. Made a cracking morning start to night sail very easy navigation to sea so no worries. More excitement for your children?