Three reefs ?

pragmatist

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Our current and previous boat have been serious sailing boats - well designed and equipped (and indeed these marques have been raced offshore by other people). But they both have the same "problem". I was reminded of it while reading the ISAF requirements after the recent Fastnet - to reduce the mainsail to 40% of original size (or carry a storm trysail).

We have 3 sets of reef points and only 2 reefing lines. So, should the occasion arise, how on earth would you set the 3rd reef ? Even if we swapped one of the other lines it would be in the wrong place. So short of changing the boom for one with 3 lines or cobbling together some kind of lashing (ummm) I can't imagine how we could do this.

Anyone enlighten me ?

Penny
 

Twister_Ken

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I've sailed several boats with this set-up. The answer we came up with, though not very satisfactory, is to leave a mouse line looped permanently between the 2nd and 3rd reef leech cringles. Then when putting in the 2nd reef, the 1st reef line can be taken out and moused through the 3rd reef cringle, ready for the next gear change. The reef lines had a loop whipped onto them, so that the mouse could be tied in quickly and easily.

There may be a more elegant solution, though.
 

SoSageofLorn

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I have had three reefs and only two lines on my last two boats. Both have three points on the boom to secure the end of the reefing line at the correct position for each reef.
When you put in reef two, it is a simple task to re reeve the line for reef one through the cringle for reef three and back to its new position on the boom. Having said that, I have only ever had to do it once. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 

dansaskip

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Well I disagree - the boats cant be well designed and well equiped if they have no provision for 3 reefs. You need a boom that can take 3 reefing lines.
The last thing you want to be doing when you have 2 reefs in is to have to fiddle about reeveing in the 3rd reef line. It needs to be there for instant and easy use.
The elegent solution is to change your boom.
 

yoda

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I believe that all reef lines should be in place before setting off. By the time you have put the first reef in the boat is heeled and probably bouncing around a bit. Trying to move reef lines etc etc adds un-necessay risk. I know racing boys will talk about windage, airflow, reduced efficiency, weight aloft etc but compared to safety of people I don't believe the arguments stack up.

Yoda
 

Adonnante

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Can't see the problem . When we need the third reef (on average a couple of times a year) the second reef line is untied from around the boom and pulled out of the second reef cringle, it's then fed through the third reef cringle and tied back around the boom using a running bowline. I guess it takes less than a couple of minutes and the boat happily jogs on under jib.
 

Bejasus

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we also have 3 reefing points but only able to put in 2 reefs, ours are on blocks on a traveller track mounted on the boom leading forward to a small winch and a couple of cleats.
I will soon be changing out the track as some of the holes are worn and when I do we will be fitting 3 of these, bail down and block facing forward.
01649_f.jpg


Reefing lines attached to the bails using a bowline, running under the boom and up through the cringle and back down to the blocks. Then running forward through labelled spinlocks to the small winch and then cleated off as requiried.
 

charles_reed

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Having tried

a traveller line rather than a fully fitted pennant I wouldn't recommend going down that route.

I had to add a fourth reef on my main and made up a single-line reef, using a slightly amended version of the one on the Harken website.

It's worked a treat during the last 3 seasons (10K nm), takes about 30secs to put in as a single-hander.

Mine is the 1st reef on a 32 m2 main and at about the limit for the largest of the Harken Airblocks (from memory the 60s). Got lots of advice and support from Harken in the US, who actually ran the calcs for me - Harken UK were a waste of time, not even being able to supply the range of blocks that were needed for the job.
 

SoSageofLorn

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well I disagree, many well designed and seriously seaworthy boats do not have a provision for a permanently reeved third reef. I suspect that more problems exist with single line reefing systems and boats with lines led aft. I keep it simple and have everything at the mast and, if I am reefing more often than not will heave too. If I need the second reef and conditions are deteriorating I will reeve the third reef at the same time. It takes a matter of seconds and with a boat hove too is perfectly safe.
 
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I am sorry, but I find this post hard to accept.
´(ummm) I can't imagine how we could do this. ´

The answer is, get some tuition, or read, or search the net.

If you cant reef, dont sail, simple.

Sorry to be so abrupt, but if you cant change gear in a manual box car, you shouldn´t be on the road, same thing.ç

Any sensible sailor carries a trysail, unless you creek hop or sail for 1 hour on the solent.

All you need to do, as explained, is transfer one line to the other reef points. not really rocket technology.

I think this would qualify for a blue flag, or ensign or whatever is the name of the day.. not referring to the poster, but pride in a defaced cloth is less important than knowing how to reef. probably the most basic necessity of sailing.

Rant over
 

SoSageofLorn

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[ QUOTE ]
I am sorry, but I find this post hard to accept.
´(ummm) I can't imagine how we could do this. ´


If you cant reef, dont sail, simple.


Any sensible sailor carries a trysail, unless you creek hop or sail for 1 hour on the solent.

All you need to do, as explained, is transfer one line to the other reef points. not really rocket technology.

I

Rant over

[/ QUOTE ]

Steady on old chap! Too much sun perhaps?

The OP was at least sensible enough to invest in a Rival!

This fine vessel has already 3 reef points and one assumes no trisail.

I have to say, unless crossing oceans, it has to be quicker and easier to tuck in a third reef than to rig a tri sail.

The Lady does not say she knows not how to reef, she is merely asking how to go about putting in the third.

More sensible to ask now surely!

Calm down and pour yourself another Vina Sol /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
 

pessimist

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[ QUOTE ]
I am sorry, but I find this post hard to accept.
´(ummm) I can't imagine how we could do this. ´

The answer is, get some tuition, or read, or search the net.

If you cant reef, dont sail, simple.

Sorry to be so abrupt, but if you cant change gear in a manual box car, you shouldn´t be on the road, same thing.ç

Any sensible sailor carries a trysail, unless you creek hop or sail for 1 hour on the solent.

All you need to do, as explained, is transfer one line to the other reef points. not really rocket technology.

I think this would qualify for a blue flag, or ensign or whatever is the name of the day.. not referring to the poster, but pride in a defaced cloth is less important than knowing how to reef. probably the most basic necessity of sailing.

Rant over

[/ QUOTE ]

As the other half of pragmatist I stand suitably humbled before your omnipotent knowledge of all things saily. We've sailed this boat for a year or two now, but have never had to use the third reef. We've considered most of the options proposed by the learned members, but wondered how others have managed.

Were you born a prat, or did you have to study? Fast track YM perhaps?

To all who provided a sensible answer - thank you.
 

pragmatist

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Thanks to you and all the fine chaps who have given helpful replies. The 1st & 2nd reef are easy to put in and the sail sets very well when reefed. However since the boat is effectively a 20/20 boat and we don't tend to go out in big winds (cos our elderly dog complains !) we have not yet had occasion to put in the 3rd reef. And no, we don't have a trysail nor do I think most Rivals of our marque do - and reading Rival Roundup many of them have been to places we'll probably never see - including a couple with 13yr old daughter rounding the Horn !

As a very short-handed crew (2 of us and someone to mind the dog) I am less than sanguine about hopping about on the coachroof more than I have to so I like the idea of a 3rd line if we can have one without changing the boom. However I do recognise it's one of those issues which is on the list of "must sort" - a bit like the brand new storm jib which has sat in a locker since the boat was new some 25-odd years ago ! Mostly the ideas you've come up with are things we've discussed over time but it is really helpful to find out what others do. And by the way Twister Ken - could you arrange for a nice crew of fit young men please ? /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Penny
 

Boathook

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I have 3 reefs on my boat all with lines fitted. Being external to the boom there is no issue of 'space'. Main concern is that after 20 years I have still not used the 3rd reef. I (includes boat!) prefer to be in port or another safe place. Someone else mentioned a trisail. I got rid of mine as it had never been used, but then I only sail in the channel within 12 hours of a port ....
 

snowleopard

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I have bee sailing for 49 years now and despite carrying a trysail from time to time have never set one. OTOH I have pulled in the 3rd reef now and again and been very glad of it. One thing is for certain- I wouldn't want to be any where near the outer end of the boom at the point where the 3rd reef becomes necessary.

There is no need to change the boom to add a 3rd line. I can't remember whether your reefing gear is conventional slab or single-line but in any case the solution is the same. Take a leaf out of the old salt's book and fit bee blocks: An eye plate on one side of the boom and a block (like a smaller version of a sheet turning block) on the other, then run the line along the outside of the boom (a couple of bullseyes will stop it getting in the way) to a clutch and whatever turning blocks you need to lead it to a winch. At the tack end, you may find that the first two reefs fill up the horns on the gooseneck so use a pendant of about a metre of 8mm line and tie the tack cringle down with a slippery half hitch - it won't come adrift.
 

shmoo

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[ QUOTE ]

may find that the first two reefs fill up the horns on the gooseneck


[/ QUOTE ]

Oh!

So do you put the second one on top of the first on the horn? and then the third one on top of both? I usually take the first one off before putting the second one on, and then the second one off before putting the third one on. Am I doing it wrong? (quite likely, that is my usual state)
 
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Re: Three reefs ? - ok lets make it simple

[ QUOTE ]
Our current and previous boat have been serious sailing boats - well designed and equipped (and indeed these marques have been raced offshore by other people).

<span style="color:red"> </span> Obviously NOT well equipped. Other people who raced offshore probably did HAVE a trysail n adequate reefing systems, AND new how to use them. As for a SERIOUS sailor ?? well, that leaves a lot to the imagination.. however to continue......

But they both have the same "problem". I was reminded of it while reading the ISAF requirements after the recent Fastnet - to reduce the mainsail to 40% of original size (or carry a storm trysail).

<span style="color:red"> </span> Very sensible advice, which if you ARE serious about sailing, you should follow, and depending on your ability to comfortably sail with a full rig, then it is again not rocket science to work out for yourself where the reef points should be. What suits one sailor may not suit anothers ability, percieved or actual.

We have 3 sets of reef points and only 2 reefing lines. So, should the occasion arise, how on earth would you set the 3rd reef ? Even if we swapped one of the other lines it would be in the wrong place. So short of changing the boom for one with 3 lines or cobbling together some kind of lashing (ummm) I can't imagine how we could do this.

<span style="color:red"> </span> Should the occasion arise, then you probably dont have much varied sailing experience. 3rd reef sailing is a matter of course if you sail a lot in varied conditions, if you dont, then at least be prepared for when complacency bites yer ass.

Anyone enlighten me ?

Penny

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes Penny, and Partner Penny.

Before you jump down MY throat. THINK. you own a boat that is very capable, but you seem to not have the experience to sail her well. You make the boat do what YOU want, for 90% of the time. Yes, you say later in the thread that the boat type has done xyz, so have many many others. Most later owners have one because it has a great record, not because they intend to use it to full potential, or close to it. As I said before, read, learn and aquire the skills to KNOW what it needs.

Trysails, I dont give a fig if mr x has umpteen years éxperience, so what, probably the same season repeated time the years quoted, as opposed to varied conditions, if YOU think a trysail is not needed, or indeed can be an asset to your normal working inventory, then hey...... cool. however, a trysail is NOT an option if you ARE serious about your SERIOUS sailing boat. it is a basic requirement.

To Mr Penny, no, I am indeed not a fast track YM, not ´´even´´ a YM, but, I am expereinced at sailing in many varied conditions over a long time. It is unlikely that any FSYM learns where the TS is stored let alone how to use it. Often the boat for tuition will not have one, it is not acceptable in my opinion, but that is life. The TS makes a great working sail and is far better than a 3rd reef in many conditions.
You started the thread with the SERIOUS sailor theme. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
If you (both) take anything away from this thread, then let it be the FACT that you prepare for the worst, hope for the best. You possibly have a boat that is very capable - depending on how it has been afflicted over the years, all you need to do now is be PRAGMATIC about your approach to SERIOUS SAILING.. in your SERIOUS boat. and to be SERIOUS.......... stop relying on the history of other users of the same Marque and learn to use the systems you have or indeed how to adopt them, there are many serious sailing boat owners who dont even know how to caclulate the position of the reef points in the first place.. go figure.

Above all chill and be safe, carry the right equipment, know HOW to use it, and WHEN to use it, remove the drinks cabinet if you must to make room.

Happy serious sailing..

Joe. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
 
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