The Twitches

[Stemar]

Went out spectating the RTI last weekend. Coming back from Hurst to Cowes on a dead run, we just couldn't get the sails trimmed right on our Westerly Chieftain.

We were on close to a dead run, and tried different combinations of main (new) and Genoa (roller furling, knackered), wing on wing, same side, genny poled out or without pole, and she just wouldn't stay in line. She regularly needed great armfuls of wheel to try to get her back in line. The rudder didn't sem to respond. With engine running, the response was better, but not the stability.

The rudder's all there, the sea wasn't bad (a couple of feet or so, once we got clear of the outfalls and stinkpot wakes).

Any suggestions?

a: Why was rudder response so poor? We were flying along at close to hull speed, so plenty of flow over it. Could it be turbulence from the prop (3 blades)?

b:Why so twitchy? at Easter, with in F2, I ran from Ryde to Cowes wing on wing without touching anything, and the autopilot hardly moving. On Saturday, F4-5, even looking at the autopilot would induce an immediate broach.

Many thanks

Steve

 

[yoda]

I'm not sure of the rig on a Chieften but were the main and Genoa sizes fairly evenly matched? if one is much larger than the other it will have a tendency to take the boat one way and any kind of sea from behind could have exagerated the problem. I had a similar problem early on this season which resulted in an inadvertant gybe, broken boom and torn mainsail while running downwind in a F5. Hope this helps a little.

Yoda

 

[kgi]

Umm just a thought which way was the tide going?.....once had a similar thing off portland, running in fairly light breeze when the current picked us up and i had no rudder control what so ever........keith

 

[castaway]

I had the same thing at the other end of the island sailing from Priory bay to Chi, only dif was that I couldnt leave the wheel long enough to set the spi pole onto the genoa. I was sailing with my daughters and their friends and no one could hold the boat straight long enough for me to set it..... I put it down to the spring west going tide and westerly breeze. In the end I tacked down wind across to Langston and then to Chi.

Worst thing was that when I got to Chi I thought it would be nice to spend the night at East Head. Why do I always do this?... breeze got up, tide turned and I spent the night sailing around my anchor (as usual). Got 2 hours sleep and had to work Sunday afternoon. very relaxing...

Nick

 

[LORDNELSON]

It does sound like a tidal current induced problem reducing the velocity of the water passing your rudder. Couple of queries (a) did you try reefing your mainsail? (b) have you examined your rudder/underwater body of boat since experiencing this problem?

 

[Guest]

Did you suffer exessive roll?
If so this can reduce the amount of rudder in the water.
To help reduce roll you can tighten the vang/kicker right in and slacken out haul.
Just a suggestion.

 

[brian_neale]

Maybe a better strategy is to come 20-25 degrees off a dead run, and broad reach instead, gybing when you run out of water. Typically gives better boat speed that more-or-less compensates for extra distance sailed, and is easier/more comfortable/safer (lower risk of unplanned gybe). Does depend on presence of other boats/width of water available, of course.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Brian, that's always my strategy. Generally faster both through the water and VMG, more comfortable, easier to sail and less fear of braining one of more crew and damaging kit in an unplanned gybe.

 

[billmacfarlane]

I'd go along with Brian and Ken. Sailing dead downwind is my least favourite point of sailing and one I avoid if possible. I prefer " tacking " downwind , sailing as broad as possible without the jib collapsing , then gybing on to the next tack. If you get your gybes right it can be a faster point of sailing and get you to your destination quicker.

 

[Rob_Webb]

Was your Chieftain goose-winged?

In anything above a F4+ I also avoid a dead run and put in a couple of long broad-reaches instead. But when I do goose-wing with the wind dead aft, I notice that the boat immediately becomes less stable and more liable to wandering off track - this is because of the lack of positive bias one side or the other, which is what we are used to when sailing on all other points of sail. If you combine this with tidal eddies working their magic around your fins, you have a recipe for a white-knuckle ride!

Rob

 

[Stemar]

In answer to the questions posed,

We were sailing goose winged.

I think genoa and main were fairly evenly matched. We tried several combinations, so one of them must have been somewhere near.

A chieftain is basically a centre cockpit Centaur, so a bilge keeled sloop.

We checked the rudder, and that seems OK. Couldn't check much more - the Solent's far too cold to go and look, and far too murky to see much from the surface.

If I've understood, the general consensus seems to be that in any sort of blow, a run is a bad idea, and we should "tack" downwind.

Many thanks to all.

 

[Twister_Ken]

>If I've understood, the general consensus seems to be that in any sort of blow, a run is a bad idea, and we should "tack" downwind.<

Yes but even when it's only blowing feathers reach-gybe-reach downwind pays off as it creates more apparent wind and allows you to sail considerably faster.

 

[Rob_Webb]

It's not that goose-winging/dead-runs are ALWYAS a bad idea - just be prepared to be extra vigilent and for the boat to feel a bit soft, drunk, unpredictable, difficult to handle, liable to surpise you at any time etc. ...... now why does that sound familiar.....?...... think I've just solved the riddle of why boats are 'she's!

 

[Miker]

Interesting read folks.

Just describes my sail up the Barrow channel on Monday in a force 5 with the waves coming up from behind against the tide. The boat seemed like a bucking bronco. Next time I will gybe (or tack right round) and avoid a dead run.

 

[peterk]

I don't know your tidal situation.
Otherwise I agree with LORD NELSON

if you want to or have to sail
downwind
you want your sails to PULL the boat,
so you better reef the main,
way down if need be,
or set a second jib
butterfly fashion
- both sails
work best poled out
- tradewinds style

...peter, www.juprowa.com/kittel